View Poll Results: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

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  • Yes

    11 42.31%
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    15 57.69%
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Thread: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

  1. #31
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    lol, What is factually incorrect about the constitution?
    Go back and read what was said, clearly you didn't do that.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #32
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The founding fathers were wrong. Rights are granted by society, they don't just float around in the ether somewhere.
    This? This is your excuse for dismissing the whole of the constitution? Are you also dismissing the eight centuries of philosophy of human self determination? You do know what the Age of Enlightenment and Reason were all about... right?

    If you did, you would know how absurd that argument is.

  3. #33
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    lol, What is factually incorrect about the constitution?
    It's fitting that someone with the name Occam's Razor is arguing that the interpretation of the constitution is simple.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

  4. #34
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct and an accurate reflection of good ethics or is it a good piece of work that constantly needs to be altered? Is it good practice to sight part(s) of the constitution and its amendments as solid evidence for one's argument on an ethical position?


    Perhaps the single most important concept that came out of the Revolution was this: Limited Government.

    Not democracy in itself. As someone said once, democracy or a legislature can be as oppressive as any tyrant, if unrestrained.

    The limits on government are in the Constitution. If we have no hard-wired limits on what Gov can and can't do, then we have Unlimited Government, and that is a recipe for tyranny.

    The Founders feared a tyranny of the majority as much as they feared a tyranny of a King.


    If the Constitution is not serving our current needs, there's a process called Amendment.

    Don't bend it, Amend it!

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  5. #35
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    It's fitting that someone with the name Occam's Razor is arguing that the interpretation of the constitution is simple.
    Oh, there is nothing to interpret. Simple. Though, learning the historical foundations requires significant investment in time, it too is simple... go to the source and read. Simple.

  6. #36
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    I voted No, now even the founder fathers didn't think so and therefor put a process in place to make changes, the problem we have today is that our governing officials wish to subvert the process.

  7. #37
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    nothing in the constitution GIVES me or anyone any rights. Those rights were presumed to PRE EXIST the constitution.
    Ah ... as you clearly agree that we have rights independent of the constitution (i.e. we have rights regardless of the existence of the constitution), it should follow that you agree the constitution is not sacrosanct and is instead an attempt made by a group of individuals at approximating those rights. This is using your reasoning, which I agree with.

  8. #38
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    Let me help you out...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/histor...documents.html

    Start reading! If you get halfway through that list and don't begin to see crystal clarity inherent in the constitution... well then I suggest you read the whole list. That goes for anyone that is "confused" about Our constitution, it's vision and intent and thinks it's wide open to interpretation. It's not. But to understand it, one must LEARN of the history, philosophy, evolution that preceded the founding fathers, that they were students of, and preceded by centuries the founding of this country, but more importantly, to understand why these documents and theories behind them are the most powerful and important documents in the history of civilization.
    Excellent choices for reading material. While these may be within the links you provided, I have found these to be highly pertinent documents to understanding the Constitution:

    Avalon Project - Notes on the Debates in the Federal Convention - Notes on the Debates of the Federal Convention

    Elliot's Debates Home Page: U.S. Congressional Documents - This provides for Jonathan Elliot's five volumes of "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

    When one reads these two sets of documents along with the Federalist Papers, one has a much greater understanding of the formation of our Constitution and its meaning.

    Occam, thanks for your links. My library just expanded... again. I will happily investigate them for their usefulness.

  9. #39
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    I voted No, now even the founder fathers didn't think so and therefor put a process in place to make changes, the problem we have today is that our governing officials wish to subvert the process.
    Euler is credited for founding the study of graph theory, based on a paper he wrote in 1736. However, it took about two and a half centuries, two mathematicians, and a computer to prove the Four-Color Theorem. Good lucking convincing me that those credited with founding knew all the important details on what they founded.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

  10. #40
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The founding fathers were wrong. Rights are granted by society, they don't just float around in the ether somewhere.
    You are correct that in a democracy we only get legally supported rights via societies decision. However, rights are ethical/philosophically based and therefore exists regardless of the law in every person's mind. This is to say that our rights are subjective in that people decide for themselves what rights people should have and that they exist regardless of the law. In a democracy, if enough people agree on particular rights, those rights are granted ... this however does not mean that there are not other rights that have not yet been acknowledged. In a democracy, the people decide what rights will be legally supported. The constitution is only a snapshot of a majorities honoring of certain rights at one time in history. Therefore, by definition, the constitution should always be scrutinized and ethically challenged as society grows. It is certainly not a set of undeniable truths.

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