View Poll Results: Does evolution happen

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  • Evolution happens, and it is random

    65 71.43%
  • Evolution happens and is guided by a higher power

    10 10.99%
  • There is not enough information to know for sure

    7 7.69%
  • No, evolutuon does not happen

    5 5.49%
  • I don't know

    4 4.40%
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Thread: Evolution

  1. #301
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    Re: Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    So what is your belief? You haven't said Nor, Conspicuoulsy, Voted in the Poll! Not even an "I don't know".

    What are you doing in this string?
    You say you're not accusing the scientific community- but you ARE doing just that by continually insinuating members of it...
    and thereby attempting to, if even in a minor way, Cast doubt on Evolution.

    If your only point is 2% of every profession stinks, you have no germaine point to this string.
    It's premise is NOT "all scientists are perfect".
    It's about the Fact of evolution and 150 years of evolution Science.

    (Disclaimer, I haven't read much of the middle of this string)
    I never vote in the polls. Its kinda silly. Not very 'scientific'. My opinion is that of course evolution occurs. I have a fairly decent understanding of natural selection and the process we call micro-evolution. Macro...Im still a little fuzzy with. Sorry...with a solid inderstanding of DNA I would really love to understand how genetically we change based on environmental needs, and not just in a single incident but enough across a species at the same time to allow for continuance of a species. I'd love to learn more. I assume that in time we will in fact learn more and wont at all be surprised when much of what we promote today as being known is in fact demonstrated to be completely wrong. I dont get all arrogant mother ****er superior about people with a pure science faith system like some pricks do. I dont laugh derisively at people with a God based belief system. Truth be told? I dont know. Im OK with that.
    Last edited by VanceMack; 08-29-11 at 06:34 PM.

  2. #302
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    Re: Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    So what is your belief? You haven't said Nor, Conspicuoulsy, Voted in the Poll! Not even an "I don't know".

    What are you doing in this string?
    You say you're not accusing the scientific community- but you ARE doing just that by continually insinuating members of it...
    and thereby attempting to, if even in a minor way, Cast doubt on Evolution.

    If your only point is 2% of every profession stinks, you have no germaine point to this string.
    It's premise is NOT "all scientists are perfect".
    It's about the Fact of evolution and 150 years of evolution Science.

    (Disclaimer, I haven't read much of the middle of this string)
    Oh...bytheway, you failed to mention the 34% that 'fudged' data that might disagree with them, the 14% that knew of others that had fabricated data, and the 72% who knew of people that engaged in questionable research tactics. And see...this is the part where after an individual is challenged to offer evidence and does so, you either rebut the evidence or simply say 'touche'! I never said all of science was flawed. I have worked with enough researchers to know how and why the game is played.

  3. #303
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    Re: Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I never vote in the polls. Its kinda silly. Not very 'scientific'.
    You are free to vote and explain.. to be precise in your opinion.
    It's understood when someone posts these polls.

    My opinion is that of course evolution occurs. I have a fairly decent understanding of natural selection and the process we call micro-evolution. Macro...Im still a little fuzzy with. Sorry...with a solid inderstanding of DNA I would really love to understand how genetically we change based on environmental needs, and not just in a single incident but enough across a species at the same time to allow for continuance of a species. I'd love to learn more. I assume that in time we will in fact learn more and wont at all be surprised when much of what we promote today as being known is in fact demonstrated to be completely wrong. I dont get all arrogant mother ****er superior about people with a pure science faith system like some pricks do. I dont laugh derisively at people with a God based belief system. Truth be told? I dont know. Im OK with that.
    We have already "learned more".
    It's a matter of acceptance for people for many reasons- usually religious.
    People will accept that things like Mountains rose over a 50 million year stretch because of geologic evidence even tho it is way beyond their/human lifespan. Unwitnessed.
    But because of religious beliefs/Indoctrination will not accept Evolution despite similar Geologic evidence. Such as shell fossils at every elevation/top- of a mountain.

    There are Intermediate species/fossils for Every extant specie, Including Us, indeed intermediate species for extinct ones as well.
    Surely "God", "is perfect"/"Created us perfect" didn't need all that practice. At least according to the Bible.
    ie, See the skull charts posted earlier in the string.

    Everything we have learned is on evolution's side- every new science Confirms evolution.
    When Isotopic dating, (Carbon14 the best known), was discovered in the 1940's.. that could have killed it.
    It confirmed of course.
    As has DNA/DNA regression analysis.

    All it would have taken in 150 years is to find any of the Millions of fossils that have been found around the globe in the wrong Strata/age-- and blooey.
    But They never will find Human fossils in the Belly of Dinosaur ones or in the same strata.
    We ALREADY Know this.
    You really don't look forward to learning as you claim, as you do not accept what we already know.
    Rather, as quoted just below, make a mockery of reason/Shoot the messenger.

    Oh...bytheway, you failed to mention the 34% that 'fudged' data that might disagree with them, the 14% that knew of others that had fabricated data, and the 72% who knew of people that engaged in questionable research tactics. And see...this is the part where after an individual is challenged to offer evidence and does so, you either rebut the evidence or simply say 'touche'! I never said all of science was flawed. I have worked with enough researchers to know how and why the game is played.
    Again, this is Utterly Fallacious and doesn't dent in the least 150 years and Mountain.. RANGES... of evidence.
    Your sentiments are clear, despite your denial.
    And your scientist bashing, not only laughable 'logic', but wanton desperation.
    Last edited by mbig; 08-29-11 at 09:44 PM.
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  4. #304
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    Re: Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    You are free to vote and explain.. to be precise in your opinion.
    It's understood when someone posts these polls.


    We have already "learned more".
    It's a matter of acceptance for people for many reasons- usually religious.
    People will accept that things like Mountains rose over a 50 million year stretch because of geologic evidence even tho it is way beyond their/human lifespan. Unwitnessed.
    But because of religious beliefs/Indoctrination will not accept Evolution despite similar Geologic evidence. Such as shell fossils at every elevation/top- of a mountain.

    There are Intermediate species/fossils for Every extant specie, Including Us, indeed intermediate species for extinct ones as well.
    Surely "God", "is perfect"/"Created us perfect" didn't need all that practice. At least according to the Bible.
    ie, See the skull charts posted earlier in the string.

    Everything we have learned is on evolution's side- every new science Confirms evolution.
    When Isotopic dating, (Carbon14 the best known), was discovered in the 1940's.. that could have killed it.
    It confirmed of course.
    As has DNA/DNA regression analysis.

    All it would have taken in 150 years is to find any of the Millions of fossils that have been found around the globe in the wrong Strata/age-- and blooey.
    But They never will find Human fossils in the Belly of Dinosaur ones or in the same strata.
    We ALREADY Know this.
    You really don't look forward to learning as you claim, as you do not accept what we already know.
    Rather, as quoted just below, make a mockery of reason/Shoot the messenger.

    Again, this is Utterly Fallacious and doesn't dent in the least 150 years and Mountain.. RANGES... of evidence.
    Your sentiments are clear, despite your denial.
    And your scientist bashing, not only laughable 'logic', but wanton desperation.
    Awww...see...now thats just sad. No...wait...its pathetic. Well...sad AND pathetic.

  5. #305
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    Re: Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Oh...bytheway, you failed to mention the 34% that 'fudged' data that might disagree with them, the 14% that knew of others that had fabricated data, and the 72% who knew of people that engaged in questionable research tactics. And see...this is the part where after an individual is challenged to offer evidence and does so, you either rebut the evidence or simply say 'touche'! I never said all of science was flawed. I have worked with enough researchers to know how and why the game is played.
    This was kinda what I just spent several pages trying to get you to actually say. But really, I wanted you to say one way or another whether you thought that "some scientists lie" is valid evidence for discounting evolution as a whole. I think you're finally saying that no, but the entire purpose of bringing up scientific dishonesty in the first place was to imply that.

    Glad we've finally got a concrete answer.

    One question. As for those percentages that fudged evidence and the like. Were their errors discovered in peer review? To me this is much more important than the credibility of an individual scientist. I would think that the system of peer review would catch a lot of those fabrications and ensure that only theories that are accurately supported by evidence would enter general knowledge.
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  6. #306
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    Re: Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    This was kinda what I just spent several pages trying to get you to actually say. But really, I wanted you to say one way or another whether you thought that "some scientists lie" is valid evidence for discounting evolution as a whole. I think you're finally saying that no, but the entire purpose of bringing up scientific dishonesty in the first place was to imply that.

    Glad we've finally got a concrete answer.

    One question. As for those percentages that fudged evidence and the like. Were their errors discovered in peer review? To me this is much more important than the credibility of an individual scientist. I would think that the system of peer review would catch a lot of those fabrications and ensure that only theories that are accurately supported by evidence would enter general knowledge.
    Peer review has lots of problems, but it's the best system we have. It's a political game. Here's a trick to improve your paper's chances as it works through the peer review process - cite the papers of people who are likely to be in your peer review pool. This goes on all of the time. The paper you're writing is tailored and shaped via a political process. If you didn't have to play the game, a lot of this tactics wouldn't be necessary and the papers wouldn't be cited because the paper you've written would have taken a slightly different direction.

    Truth does come out. It may just take a while. For instance, reviewers are now raking Stephen Jay Gould over the coals for a lot of his faulty scholarship in his science popularizations. He smeared men and ruined their reputations and wouldn't you know, he was the one that was stretching the truth or outright fabricating it, not the people he accused. Truth eventually wins because there is no time limit on truth.

  7. #307
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    Re: Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    This was kinda what I just spent several pages trying to get you to actually say. But really, I wanted you to say one way or another whether you thought that "some scientists lie" is valid evidence for discounting evolution as a whole. I think you're finally saying that no, but the entire purpose of bringing up scientific dishonesty in the first place was to imply that.

    Glad we've finally got a concrete answer.

    One question. As for those percentages that fudged evidence and the like. Were their errors discovered in peer review? To me this is much more important than the credibility of an individual scientist. I would think that the system of peer review would catch a lot of those fabrications and ensure that only theories that are accurately supported by evidence would enter general knowledge.
    You are freqin amazing. I never said ALL...I stated I never said all or even most. Ive never discounted the science. You fabricated this idiotic stand based on something I never said, ignored it when I stated I didnt say it, then claim 'victory' when I very adequately demonstrate some scientists fake, fluff, or fudge thier research to create results. Comical. Beyond comical. You caught your own tail...good puppy! Now go lay down...

  8. #308
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    Re: Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    You are freqin amazing. I never said ALL...I stated I never said all or even most. Ive never discounted the science. You fabricated this idiotic stand based on something I never said, ignored it when I stated I didnt say it, then claim 'victory' when I very adequately demonstrate some scientists fake, fluff, or fudge thier research to create results. Comical. Beyond comical. You caught your own tail...good puppy! Now go lay down...
    The entire point of the discussion you got into back on page 24 was claiming that scientists were liars and that we shouldn't listen to them. Here's a few quotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I think you are being dishonest if you assume or submit that MOST that believe in evolution are learned folk. Some? Sure...even many. But all? Heck...follow this thread and it is easy to see that many have their own 'belief' in science...and thats all good...really. But if you cant explain the existence of all matter you are left with "I believe...because...I think...and...Im not really sure...and I dont really know..." The origins of a mere cup of dirt defies our accumulated 'knowledge'. Lots of theory tho...
    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    No doubt. For some. Othersare just as blind and moronic about their belief in 'science' as the religious folk they hold in such low regard.
    I don't know what you could possibly have to say other than that it is proper to discount the science. First you say that there's faith in science, and that people don't really understand it. That's the complete opposite of the truth, with conclusions reached by careful consideration of evidence. If you actually respect what scientists do, and respect their integrity, why are you trying to show their work as improper?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Willful deception is commonly practiced. Even by those science minded folks. People frequently research things not to find the 'truth' but with the specific intent to prove a hypothesis. Mans gotta publish...right?
    Frequently. As in, often enough to be of statistical relevance. You actually said that the body of scientific knowledge contains willful lies. That is what I'm addressing. You keep jumping backwards and refusing to either retract or stand by that comment. You brought out some numbers, but then didn't address whether peer review caught those discrepancies.

    I'll accept that you support the scientific method, and aren't really claiming that the scientific community intentional attempts to deceive the public for their own ends. But it damn sure sounded like you were making that claim. And I certainly don't want anyone reading this thread to get the wrong impression.
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  9. #309
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    Re: Evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The entire point of the discussion you got into back on page 24 was claiming that scientists were liars and that we shouldn't listen to them. Here's a few quotes.

    I don't know what you could possibly have to say other than that it is proper to discount the science. First you say that there's faith in science, and that people don't really understand it. That's the complete opposite of the truth, with conclusions reached by careful consideration of evidence. If you actually respect what scientists do, and respect their integrity, why are you trying to show their work as improper?



    Frequently. As in, often enough to be of statistical relevance. You actually said that the body of scientific knowledge contains willful lies. That is what I'm addressing. You keep jumping backwards and refusing to either retract or stand by that comment. You brought out some numbers, but then didn't address whether peer review caught those discrepancies.

    I'll accept that you support the scientific method, and aren't really claiming that the scientific community intentional attempts to deceive the public for their own ends. But it damn sure sounded like you were making that claim. And I certainly don't want anyone reading this thread to get the wrong impression.
    Horse****. Go back to the post that you suddenly got your silkies pulled tight on.

    261- In a response to Scourge and his use of the word “willful deception” I stated Willful deception is commonly practiced. Even by those science minded folks. People frequently research things not to find the 'truth' but with the specific intent to prove a hypothesis. Mans gotta publish...right?

    You of course jumped in with

    262-Are you suggesting that scientists fabricate results? The only way to prove a hypothesis is to find supporting evidence. Unless the evidence is false, then your premise is faulty. Go ahead, accuse the scientific community of just being a bunch of liars.

    To which I replied in 264
    ALL of the scientific community? No...of course not. Some? Helz yes.
    Of course, scourge, like you, lost all objectivity and made ‘some’ mean all and declared I was indicting ALL of science which of course was an idiotic thing to say because I in no way impunded ALL of science and affirmed that fact

    282-Again...where am I suggesting all or even most of the evolutionary scientists are frauds? I think most are doing what they do...postulating, researching, postulating some more.

    Ah…but not to be outdone in the arena of idiocy, you jump right back with

    265-So... you think that they're earnest... but wrong? By all means publish some evidence that contradicts the established theories.

    In 289 I repeated what I had been saying. For some moronic reason you decided to take up the shield of defense for science when in fact I wasn’t ATTACKING science, merely pointing out it is not pristine.
    “SOME researchers deliberately create flawed theory and offer fabricated evidence to support it. Some studies are legit...let the chips fall where they may. Some are guided to produce a deliberate result. Its the nature of science, research, people. In order to get fundingyou have to be able to show 'results'. There isnt a "Journal of Huh...That didnt at ALL Look Like What we Initially Thought it Did" although it would be kinda cool if there was.
    Can I interest you in a piece of cloning research from famed South Korean scientist Hwang Woo-suk?
    Not all. Definitely some.”

    Then…just for fun I threw in a survey BY scientists ABOUT scientists and the potential for flawed data to demonstrate what I had been talking about. It was pretty compelling stuff…right? I mean…2% of survey participants admitting to fraud, up to 34% admitted to other questionable research practices, 14% knew someone who had fabricated, falsified or altered data (which kinda puts a lie to the 2% that actually admit to it…but hey…who wants to admit to being part of that 14%) and up to 72% knew someone who had committed other questionable research practices.

    That’s all I had ever suggested. Not that science was improper or incorrect. Not that science should be discounted because some (and apparently a LOT) scientists skew their research data (side note-anyone that has worked in a university setting already understand this to be common). Not that evolution was wrong…hell…twice before I had affirmed my knowledge of and acceptance of micro-evolution as we know it today.

    Should be clear to anyone…but…not to the idiot triplets now joined by BMAC who not only completely glossed over a study of scientific integrity by a group of scientists but then went on to do this head spinning rant about how I was a liar for stating I even believed in any type of evolution and that I was really a god worshipping candle burning tie your children down and sacrifice them at the altar creationist.

    Which proves one thing…you people lose your ****ing MINDS when someone dares to challenge your faith base. And people think religious types are bad…

  10. #310
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    Re: Evolution

    I didn't vote for any of them because evolution does happen, but it's neither random nor guided by a spiritual power. It's guided by DNA mutation and natural selection.

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