View Poll Results: Are you smarter than The Obama?

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  • I am smarter than The Obama

    14 36.84%
  • We're evn, or just about

    8 21.05%
  • The Obama is smarter than me.

    16 42.11%
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Thread: Are you smarter than The Obama?

  1. #371
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Obstacles poor people face in getting a good education, in no particular order:

    Lack of quality, supportive parenting
    This is not society causing the problem, so society shouldn't be blamed.

    Lack of two parent household
    Again, it's not society that is imposing this condition on black families.

    More important concerns than education(like not getting shot)
    1.) Increased police presence is often characterized as oppressing the community. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. What's your solution? Heavy police presence in black underclass neighborhoods? You don't think that that's been tried before?

    2.) The condition is removed from black middle class and black upper class neighborhoods. The root problem is still present. See the SAT data - black students from families with incomes above $70,000 (1995 dollars) scored below white students from families with incomes of $10,000 or less.

    Reduced access to thinks like computers
    The Kansas City experiment gushed money on the entire city's poor schools. Look at the Abbott Schools decision in New Jersey. The NJ Supreme Court took control over school financing and mandated that poor schools be given huge equalization boosts. These poor school districts now spend more per student than do the school districts of the wealthy suburbs. No difference in outcomes.

    Too many negative role models
    And this is society's fault? Now we need liberals in censorship positions imposing their ideological stamp of approval on cultural role models?

    Too few positive role models
    Give me a break. This is total bull****. When you turn on the TV or go to movies, all you see are positive black role models. You see genius medical doctors who are heads of department, you see ERs filled with black physicians, all competent, admired, and very skilled at their jobs. You see wise and successful police chiefs, you see learned judges, you see brilliant scientists. Positive role models coming out of the wazoo and truth be told not supported by reality.

    Persistent drug and gang issues near homes and among peers
    And society has caused this?

    Poor diet
    Society has forced people to eat a poor diet?

    Many many other things
    All of which have as much influence (none) as the ones you taken the time to specify.

  2. #372
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    I did not place blame on any one. Factors that contribute are factors that contribute, many of which don't actually have any one at fault.

    By the way:

    The Kansas City experiment gushed money on the entire city's poor schools. Look at the Abbott Schools decision in New Jersey. The NJ Supreme Court took control over school financing and mandated that poor schools be given huge equalization boosts. These poor school districts now spend more per student than do the school districts of the wealthy suburbs. No difference in outcomes.
    That has jack **** to do with what I said.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  3. #373
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I did not place blame on any one. Factors that contribute are factors that contribute, many of which don't actually have any one at fault.
    Not "factors that contribute" but "factors that are thought to contribute." Huge difference. The latter is a more accurate description.

    By the way:

    That has jack **** to do with what I said.
    To the degree that schools provided access to computers, it's bang-on relevant. Those extravagant school funding schemes directly attacked the notion that student outcome disparity was a result of lack of school resources.

    Incidentally, we know that access to computers does jack in terms of boosting academic performanc.

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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Not "factors that contribute" but "factors that are thought to contribute." Huge difference. The latter is a more accurate description.
    I can accept that.

    To the degree that schools provided access to computers, it's bang-on relevant. Those extravagant school funding schemes directly attacked the notion that student outcome disparity was a result of lack of school resources.

    Incidentally, we know that access to computers does jack in terms of boosting academic performanc.
    I had a computer at home from the time I was 16(admittedly it was a TI-99, but hey). Schools are not the only place computers are, and not the only access to computers. In fact, if schools are your primary source of access to computers, you probably have less access than many people...

    Simple logic, it's good stuff.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  5. #375
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    That's a horrible idea, that's what I say. College is a waste of time for most people. College education has hardly any effect on income once you control for a person's IQ.

    I admire your idealism, but you telegraph that you're far removed from the world of education. Mission #1 in education is NOT to allow each individual to reach for their maximum potential. That is so last century. Mission #1 in education these days is to close the Achievement Gap and everything else is subordinate to that goal.

    Think about it - if you provided resources so that every person could reach for their full potential what you'd end up doing is allowing gaps to grow.
    Indeed, gaps would grow, but they would not be due to what you term the "Achievement Gap," as that is a function of race and class. I am advocating for something else entirely, which is to maximize individual potential regardless of race or class.

    I realize that it's impossible under current conditions. I am advocating we change the conditions and reorient toward this new goal. Designing a new system that tracks every child's development, seeing to it that no need goes unmet. Removing or reducing to the extent we are able, the environmental factors that account for the current "Achievement Gap." Then, monitoring their development closely noting individual affinities, and tailoring their education accordingly to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

    Yes, it would be a huge project, and we would need to get the parents all on board even before the births of their kids, but surely a national campaign aimed at that will generate positive results. Who wouldn't want their kid to have the best chance to reach their own individual potential?
    Last edited by Just1Voice; 08-15-11 at 09:11 PM.

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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I had a computer at home from the time I was 16(admittedly it was a TI-99, but hey). Schools are not the only place computers are, and not the only access to computers. In fact, if schools are your primary source of access to computers, you probably have less access than many people...

    Simple logic, it's good stuff.
    Your argument boils down to socioeconomic status ----> educational outcome.

    Let's pretend (just for this debate) that computers actually enhance educational outcomes, especially computers at home. Look at the Ferguson data I linked above - black upper class and black middle class students are not suffering from the disadvantage of lack of educational resources in the home. The outcome is still the same - they lag their white peers, with socioeconomic status being controlled.

    Look at the performance of black upper class students (those from families making $70,000 or more) and how they do poorly in comparison to poor whites on the SAT. Are you seriously contending that the children of the black upper class lack in access to home computers while the children of the white poor do have access to home computers?

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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Your argument boils down to socioeconomic status ----> educational outcome.

    Let's pretend (just for this debate) that computers actually enhance educational outcomes, especially computers at home. Look at the Ferguson data I linked above - black upper class and black middle class students are not suffering from the disadvantage of lack of educational resources in the home. The outcome is still the same - they lag their white peers, with socioeconomic status being controlled.

    Look at the performance of black upper class students (those from families making $70,000 or more) and how they do poorly in comparison to poor whites on the SAT. Are you seriously contending that the children of the black upper class lack in access to home computers while the children of the white poor do have access to home computers?
    Do you enjoy building those straw men?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  8. #378
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just1Voice View Post
    Indeed, gaps would grow, but they would not be due to what you term the "Achievement Gap," as that is a function of race and class. I am advocating for something else entirely, which is to maximize individual potential regardless of race or class.

    I realize that it's impossible under current conditions. I am advocating we change the conditions and reorient toward this new goal. Designing a new system that tracks every child's development, seeing to it that no need goes unmet. Removing or reducing to the extent we are able, the environmental factors that account for the current "Achievement Gap." Then, motoring their development closely noting individual affinities, and tailoring their education accordingly to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

    Yes, it would be a huge project, and we would need to get the parents all on board even before the births of their kids, but surely a national campaign aimed at that will generate positive results. Who wouldn't want their kid to have the best chance to reach their own individual potential?
    I'm guessing, because of your comment on getting parents on board even before their kids are born, that you're being facetious?

  9. #379
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just1Voice View Post
    Indeed, gaps would grow, but they would not be due to what you term the "Achievement Gap," as that is a function of race and class. I am advocating for something else entirely, which is to maximize individual potential regardless of race or class.

    I realize that it's impossible under current conditions. I am advocating we change the conditions and reorient toward this new goal. Designing a new system that tracks every child's development, seeing to it that no need goes unmet. Removing or reducing to the extent we are able, the environmental factors that account for the current "Achievement Gap." Then, motoring their development closely noting individual affinities, and tailoring their education accordingly to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

    Yes, it would be a huge project, and we would need to get the parents all on board even before the births of their kids, but surely a national campaign aimed at that will generate positive results. Who wouldn't want their kid to have the best chance to reach their own individual potential?
    I admire the idealism you project and I chuckle at the naivete that underlies your vision. I too would like nothing more than a system which allows each student to reach for the sky and to fulfill their inherent potential. Then I look about me at the current educational establishment and the liberal polity that supports that establishment and I know that they would never allow a system which allowed the achievement gap to increase in size to ever get off the ground. For your vision to become reality you basically have to change liberals into conservatives. Good luck with that project.

    The short and sweet of the different approaches is this - conservatives are in favor of equal opportunity and liberals are in favor of equal outcomes. Look back a couple of pages in this thread and you'll find a paper which looked at racial wage disparity. When IQ is controlled for we find that the racial wage disparity disappeared over 4 decades ago. Take a white person with 90 IQ and take a black person with 90 IQ, match them on education attainments, match them on age, match them on criminal record, match them on marital status, etc and you find that they earn equal incomes and this has been the case for a long, long time, longer than I've even been alive. The problem is that the IQ distributions in the two populations are not equal. The mean IQ of the African-American population is 85. No one who knows the material disputes this any longer. This has been studied to death. The mean IQ of the white population is 100. Environmental factors cannot influence IQ. Oh, all sorts of experiments have been tried, but they all fail.

    So, equal opportunity is prevalent in American society and we see that, ceterus paribus, equal outcomes are often the result. That doesn't satisfy liberals and the African-American community, they want equal outcomes even though when conditions are not equal and CANNOT be made equal by any means that is within our grasp.

    Your project runs directly counter to the imaginary world that liberals have created and which rules our real-life world. Good luck though. For conservatives all you need to do is overcome the income redistribution aspect but most will buy in on the equal opportunity plank. For liberals you need to come up with a way to mollify them about the guaranteed unequal results that your project will produce. That's just throwing gasoline on the fire.

  10. #380
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Do you enjoy building those straw men?
    If it's a strawman then it's an honest attempt to understand what you're getting at. Spell it out in detail.

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