View Poll Results: Are you smarter than The Obama?

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  • I am smarter than The Obama

    14 36.84%
  • We're evn, or just about

    8 21.05%
  • The Obama is smarter than me.

    16 42.11%
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Thread: Are you smarter than The Obama?

  1. #351
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    but I should say that as far as affirmative action goes, I would have prefered we insured a free college tuition to all African-Americans to any state school, who graduate from high school. i think that would have been a great thing.
    You know what, I'm open to that. Let society strike a grand bargain with definite terms. Your side wants free college tuition for all African-Americans. OK, despite my distaste for wealth redistribution I'll go along with this. I'll even be generous with other people's money and say I'll support that program for 30 years. Then it stops. Cold. Never again. Finito. Fin.

    Blacks are in a unique situation in the US due to slavery. If society was 7/8th white and 1/8th black, as it had been prior to 1965, then a limited wealth redistribution could have been a tolerable cost. Hispanics have no similar claim to blacks for preference under affirmative action. In the workforce, neither should Asians and other minorities. Everyone else came here knowing what the US was and how its society functioned, both in terms of good and bad. There should be no preference in these AA quota systems for voluntary immigrants and that should include the black children of African and Caribbean immigrants.

    The reason that such a grand bargain isn't struck is because no one believes that liberals will ever live up to the condition of ending it.

  2. #352
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    How.... odd. What an interesting piece of ammo..

    Thunder, why do you think this? How is that fair?
    it would have helped blacks get good jobs.

    free tuition does not insure graduation or acceptance into the program or state school of their choice.

    it only means that if you can get your ass through HS the govt. will make sure you can afford to pay for college.

    that would have been GREAT affirmative action.

  3. #353
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Really? Let's test your hypothesis:

    The Racial Gap in Academic Achievement

    by ABIGAIL THERNSTROM

    The SATs, too, paint a dismal picture. In 1995, black students from families in the top income bracketó$70,000 and upówere a shade behind whites from families earning less than $10,000 on the verbal assessment and significantly behind them in math.

    Your hypothesis is falsified.
    You did not read the whole source did you? Just took the part that you wanted and didn't bother to read for comprehension. First, your source says the problem is with schools and not students, and in fact ends with a school that was having success in overcoming black educational woes.

    Furthermore, there are several problems with her claims as she presents them. She does none of her own research but is using others, and it is inconsistent. It compares grade schoolers with high schoolers, and looks at test results that isolate out different variables. She downplays lots of small contributes, without seeming to realize that a bunch of small things add up.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    You claimed "Black kids don't get the education they need due to being poor and the results, "

    So, if my response has nothing to do with your claim, that is, if education funding, the quality of the teachers, the availability of resources within the school, are not what you're talking about, then your model must be putting a lot of weight on other factors associated with being poor causing the poor educational outcomes.

    What are these other factors associated with being poor? Spell them out and let's see if we can test the validity of your model.

    Upthread I've already dealt with the claim that it is a neighborhood effect.

    Looking forward to the details on your model.
    Obstacles poor people face in getting a good education, in no particular order:

    Lack of quality, supportive parenting
    Lack of two parent household
    More important concerns than education(like not getting shot)
    Reduced access to thinks like computers
    Too many negative role models
    Too few positive role models
    Persistent drug and gang issues near homes and among peers
    Poor diet
    Many many other things
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  5. #355
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    You know what, I'm open to that. Let society strike a grand bargain with definite terms. Your side wants free college tuition for all African-Americans. OK, despite my distaste for wealth redistribution I'll go along with this. I'll even be generous with other people's money and say I'll support that program for 30 years. Then it stops. Cold. Never again. Finito. Fin.

    Blacks are in a unique situation in the US due to slavery. If society was 7/8th white and 1/8th black, as it had been prior to 1965, then a limited wealth redistribution could have been a tolerable cost. Hispanics have no similar claim to blacks for preference under affirmative action. In the workforce, neither should Asians and other minorities. Everyone else came here knowing what the US was and how its society functioned, both in terms of good and bad. There should be no preference in these AA quota systems for voluntary immigrants and that should include the black children of African and Caribbean immigrants.

    The reason that such a grand bargain isn't struck is because no one believes that liberals will ever live up to the condition of ending it.
    ...and I am opposed to it by all means.

    The sheer condition of race in this financial aid proposal is sufficient to deem this idea racist. It is already absurd that we allow scholarships with race requirements.

    High school graduation is not a sufficient condition to measure whether college would be a reasonable investment for a student. I would support automatic financial aid, open to all, proportional to a student's GPA. This serves as a motivational factor and appropriately awards more to those who have worked harder and are more likely to succeed.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

  6. #356
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    You know what, I'm open to that. Let society strike a grand bargain with definite terms. Your side wants free college tuition for all African-Americans. OK, despite my distaste for wealth redistribution I'll go along with this. I'll even be generous with other people's money and say I'll support that program for 30 years. Then it stops. Cold. Never again. Finito. Fin.

    Blacks are in a unique situation in the US due to slavery. If society was 7/8th white and 1/8th black, as it had been prior to 1965, then a limited wealth redistribution could have been a tolerable cost. Hispanics have no similar claim to blacks for preference under affirmative action. In the workforce, neither should Asians and other minorities. Everyone else came here knowing what the US was and how its society functioned, both in terms of good and bad. There should be no preference in these AA quota systems for voluntary immigrants and that should include the black children of African and Caribbean immigrants.

    The reason that such a grand bargain isn't struck is because no one believes that liberals will ever live up to the condition of ending it.
    We might be onto something here. What would you say to free college for everyone, not just African-Americans, and a retooling of the educational system so that each child's education was tailored to enhance their individual strengths and minimize their individual weaknesses, so as to insure each person was as prepared to compete upon entering adulthood as it was possible to prepare them? Allocate resources to advantage the most talented, no matter who they may be or where they came from. Create an atmosphere of cooperative competition, where the goal is to push each other so each person can reach their personal pinnacle of development - not to be the best but to find out who is the best, together. Then let them enter the competitive world and see what happens.

    Such a system would relatively quickly eliminate all the current whining about who has a better chance than whom, and with it the need for a lot of social programs we have in place now that are meant to correct those imbalances (but admittedly don't really do a great job at it, though it is all we have, currently).

    Keep that program up for 30 years, and I am strongly betting that the recipients of its benefits will see to it that it remains in place permanently.

  7. #357
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I think it's stupid to lower standards or manipulate results to favor people of a certain race. That is racism and it punishes those who work hard for their grades.
    I agree.

    However, the fact that blacks may do less well than other races on tests is not a case of correlation=causation. They don't fail or do worse because they are black. If anything I think it may be due to lifestyles and a weaker drive to study and do well academically.
    You and I both have similar academic backgrounds, so let's approach this like a problem we'd face in the lab.

    What do we know?

    1.) Some factor, or some combination of factors, is causing outcome disparity between groups.

    2.) Let's brainstorm and come up with all sorts of factors that we hypothesize have an influence on outcomes.

    3.) Let's create a preliminary model and then isolate the factors. For instance, we can create a simple additive model, like this:

    Low income + bad neighborhood + poor nutrition + bad teachers + violent schools + lack of educational resources + police harassment + overt discrimination + covert discrimination + X +Y +Z + Genetics = outcome disparity.

    Isolate every factor and see how much influence it has on outcome disparity.

    Every factor that is knocked out as showing no influence on outcome disparity will increase the influence of the the the factor set that consists of all of the remaining factors.

    Rinse and repeat.

    As factors have been knocked out over the last 40-50 years the case for genetics has gotten stronger and stronger. Now we're finding all sorts of race-related genetic disparity in health outcomes - different types of cancers have disproportionate influence on different racial groups, different tolerance to salt, different propensity to diabetes, different propensity to schizophrenia, different propensity towards cardiovascular disease, etc and that's with lifestyles, nutrition, age, socioeconomic status all controlled for.

    We now know that all non-Africans on Earth are carrying genes from Neanderthal and Denisovan introgression. It is beyond dispute that Africans and Non-Africans are different on that basis alone.

    There is absolutely no plausible reason why some liberal god, high up in heaven, has decreed that the brains of reproductively isolated groups who've lived in thousands of micro-environments over tens of thousands of years should have remained off-limits to mutation, selection pressures, and genetic drift while he allowed these evolutionary processes to play fast and loose with the rest of the genome. No reason at all. Liberal appeals to creationist precepts is a horrible way of going through life and of structuring society. What's even funnier is watching liberal creationists chastising religious creationists for believing in myths. That's side-splittingly funny to watch.

  8. #358
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You did not read the whole source did you? Just took the part that you wanted and didn't bother to read for comprehension. First, your source says the problem is with schools and not students, and in fact ends with a school that was having success in overcoming black educational woes.

    Furthermore, there are several problems with her claims as she presents them. She does none of her own research but is using others, and it is inconsistent. It compares grade schoolers with high schoolers, and looks at test results that isolate out different variables. She downplays lots of small contributes, without seeming to realize that a bunch of small things add up.
    What you're doing is smoke and mirrors. You're ignoring the referenced and footnoted data and instead focusing on Thernstrom's argument. I linked to her paper because of the data that she presented and because ETS (the SAT people) no longer breakdown their race data by income.

    Deal with the data point I used to challenge your hypothesis instead of avoiding it and launching a red herring gambit.

  9. #359
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    ...and I am opposed to it by all means.

    The sheer condition of race in this financial aid proposal is sufficient to deem this idea racist. It is already absurd that we allow scholarships with race requirements.

    High school graduation is not a sufficient condition to measure whether college would be a reasonable investment for a student. I would support automatic financial aid, open to all, proportional to a student's GPA. This serves as a motivational factor and appropriately awards more to those who have worked harder and are more likely to succeed.
    I agree with your criticism. I'm just saying that I'm willing to bend on my principles in order to give the other side what they think they need and so that at the end of 30 years they'll shut up.

    As it stands, they'll never shut up because their is always some false hypothesis that they cling to. The Kansas City experiment which provided liberals with all that they wished in terms of resources made absolutely no difference to outcomes.

    That's kind of why I'm also saying that such a grand deal would never actually fly - past experience with liberals show that they are quite adept at tuning out reality when the results don't conform to liberal notions of how reality SHOULD BE. Kansas City didn't work out. Oh well. Who cares. Outcome disparity is still the result of bad schools, bad teachers, bad neighborhoods, blah, blah, blah, damn all the evidence which refutes the liberal model of reality.

    So don't worry. American liberals would never step up to the plate and live up to such a deal.

  10. #360
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    Re: Are you smarter than The Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    What you're doing is smoke and mirrors. You're ignoring the referenced and footnoted data and instead focusing on Thernstrom's argument. I linked to her paper because of the data that she presented and because ETS (the SAT people) no longer breakdown their race data by income.

    Deal with the data point I used to challenge your hypothesis instead of avoiding it and launching a red herring gambit.
    You managed to entirely and completely ignore everything I said. How amusing.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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