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Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

Who benefits the most?

  • Rich.

    Votes: 29 78.4%
  • Poor.

    Votes: 8 21.6%

  • Total voters
    37
One of the arguments I've seen from a few posters as to why the rich shouldn't pay more taxes is because they claim the poor benefit the most from the government. I disagree and here is why. The rich use the highway system to ship their goods, they use public airwaves to advertise their goods, they use the courts far more than the poor, if they ship goods by air they have to rely on government air traffic controllers, and I'm sure it costs a lot of money to keep shipping lanes clear and open., especially from troubled parts of the world. The government also gives the energy industry large subsidies.

However, you could ignore everything I listed above and the fact would remain the the rich depend on the government for their very existence as a social class. The system that allowed them to make their money, capitalism, could not exist without a government.

The government enforces contracts and protects private property. These two things are necessary for capitalism to exist and neither one of them benefits the poor. If you remove the government from the equation then capitalism will collapse. So if the government decides to tax the rich at 90%, then they should pay without complaining, because every penny they own was made possibly by state violence in favor against the poor. To clarify I should point out that protection of private property does not benefit the poor, because they have own no private property. In this case private property refers to the means of production.

In a state where every industry and commodity is nationalized and controlled by the government and when the right to property is disregarded, I ask you, who then becomes the rich? You think there's no rich people in Cuba?
 
In a state where every industry and commodity is nationalized and controlled by the government and when the right to property is disregarded, I ask you, who then becomes the rich? You think there's no rich people in Cuba?

I can't speak for U.S. Socialist. but I don't think that's what he was suggesting. To my understanding he's an advocate of Libertarian Socialism, (Real Libertarianism.) not some monolithic Soviet-style bureaucracy. So am I, incidentally, although, I am not a Marxist.
 
Come on peoples, look around you.

49-rich-and-poor.jpg


It is obvious who benefits most. I just don't see the Rich offering to give up most of the wealth in the country to take advantage of the many "benefits" of being poor. Anyone that claims otherwise is being dishonest, putting it as nicely as I can.
 
I can't speak for U.S. Socialist. but I don't think that's what he was suggesting. To my understanding he's an advocate of Libertarian Socialism, (Real Libertarianism.) not some monolithic Soviet-style bureaucracy. So am I, incidentally, although, I am not a Marxist.

Libertarian Socialism has not been proven to be "Real Libertarianism", if there is such a thing.

I believe the genesis of the concept of socialism originated with Marx. Though I realize all socialists differ in one way or another, I assume they all want greater nationalization of resources and industries. As a "libertarian socialist," I imagine you have some grand theory of people collectivizing while simultaneously individualizing for the greater good of society. I'm not sure how that works.
 
Libertarian Socialism has not been proven to be "Real Libertarianism", if there is such a thing.

Yes it has, and yes there is. The word 'Libertarian' was coined in the late 1700s, first to connote a metaphysical philosophical position. It began to be used to connote a political tendency in the 1850's, specifically; Anarchism and Marxism, which had a very different character from Marxist-Leninism, and the authoritarian permutations that came later. In the 1950's, a group of Americans who were enamored of Ayn Rand, also von Mises, etc., began calling themselves 'Libertarians.' This definition is almost exclusively confined to North America, the rest of the world uses the original definition, which has been used for well over a century. That's the literal definition.

I believe the genesis of the concept of socialism originated with Marx. Though I realize all socialists differ in one way or another, I assume they all want greater nationalization of resources and industries. As a "libertarian socialist," I imagine you have some grand theory of people collectivizing while simultaneously individualizing for the greater good of society. I'm not sure how that works.

Socialism has a number of meanings, it's both an economic system, which is usually employed more in the Marxist sense as one of the stages of history in the progression from feudalism to communism, being the final form. Then there's the philosophy, which has a number of different streams. Again; 'Libertarianism' is kind of broad and nonspecific, it encompasses both Anarchism and Marxism, with the exception of Leninism, etc. Speaking in the simplest terms; Marxism is more of an analytical system, Anarchism is more of an ethical and philosophical position. Anarchists have ideas about how the world works, but Anarchism doesn't purport to explain the world. What you're describing sounds more like Marxism. I'm an Anarchist.

A fairly simplistic definition would be that Anarchism seeks to create an egalitarian society of free individuals without the domination of monolithic institutions which are illegitimate and harmful. That includes Nation-States, corporations, religious institutions, etc. (Anarchism, like Marxism, is also Atheistic, taking a scientific, materialist view of the universe.) Anarchism is more a set of principles, like I said, it's more of a process than a finite goal. However, there are models of what one might, for lack of a better term, call more or less 'fully realized' Anarchist societies, I would say the best of these is Parpolity/Parecon, developed by Prof. Michael Albert, and Prof. Stephen Shalom.

Participatory politics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Participatory economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, I don't think it makes sense to make overly complex and intricate models. We can only anticipate the needs of future generations to a limited extent, and tactics are, to an extent, shaped by the facts on the ground, which differ wildly from place to place, and are prone to changing. What we should do, what we can do, is identify institutions of exploitation and oppression, and dismantle them, and/or replace them with more democratic institutions.
 
I think the poor benefit more. The government makes the rich pay higher taxes and the poor reap more benefits from the government (not that this is a bad thing).
 
I think the poor benefit more. The government makes the rich pay higher taxes and the poor reap more benefits from the government (not that this is a bad thing).

Not saying that you are wrong or right .. but .. there seems to be plenty of arguments showing how the rich owe much to the government and so do the poor. Obviously the rich can afford to pay more for the government's services otherwise people like Buffet wouldn't being saying so. Who benefits more from the government is a rather arbitrary question anyway. It shouldn't matter. What should matter is that the system is set up in a way that all have equal opportunity and all pay a fair share .. right now .. as people like Buffet have said, the wealthiest aren't paying their fair share and as many have argued, there is certainly not equal opportunity.
 
Not saying that you are wrong or right .. but .. there seems to be plenty of arguments showing how the rich owe much to the government and so do the poor. Obviously the rich can afford to pay more for the government's services otherwise people like Buffet wouldn't being saying so. Who benefits more from the government is a rather arbitrary question anyway. It shouldn't matter. What should matter is that the system is set up in a way that all have equal opportunity and all pay a fair share .. right now .. as people like Buffet have said, the wealthiest aren't paying their fair share and as many have argued, there is certainly not equal opportunity.

I think Buffett is wrong on the issue. Who deems "fair share?" The fact is that most poor people don't pay taxes, or they receive almost all of it back in a tax refund (which I don't think is wrong). Nothing is stopping the rich from donating to the government (which Buffett does not do). I think that the tax loopholes many rich people abuse and contort is wrong and we should reform that, but I think they pay their fair share. If we had true fairness we would have a flat tax (which I don't support, I support progressive taxation, it's a necessary evil). I do think that the rich pay enough already, and if anything they need to remove tax loop hose that the rich abuse to try and pay less taxes. However, I also think the poor should chip in somehow too. If they are on social programs they should be drug tested. Welfare should be seen as a financial rehab program and not as a way of life. We also need to reform Medicaid, but this is for another thread :mrgreen:
 
I think Buffett is wrong on the issue.

Well of course you do

Who deems "fair share?"

I would hope that in a democracy, that would be left up to the majority vote.

The fact is that most poor people don't pay taxes, or they receive almost all of it back in a tax refund (which I don't think is wrong).

OK then we are on the same page

Nothing is stopping the rich from donating to the government (which Buffett does not do).

Nothing except greed and a system that does not encourage it (otherwise people would be doing it)

I think that the tax loopholes many rich people abuse and contort is wrong and we should reform that

I agree

but I think they pay their fair share.

Clearly they do not as they use tax loopholes

If we had true fairness we would have a flat tax (which I don't support, I support progressive taxation, it's a necessary evil).

The fact that you do not agree is an indication that a flat tax would not be fair .. we've already covered why this is in previous threads

I do think that the rich pay enough already

Nope, they don't

they need to remove tax loop hose that the rich abuse to try and pay less taxes

Again, I agree

However, I also think the poor should chip in somehow too.

Agreed, and they are required to and do

If they are on social programs they should be drug tested.

if you new anything about the connection between substance abuse and mental illness you would see how that would be problematic

Welfare should be seen as a financial rehab program and not as a way of life.

Agreed, however given that different people have different abilities, it is likely that many would never get out of welfare unless wages were increased
 
Gotta love these false dichotomies.

The rich and the poor BOTH benefit, as it is the middle class that is being hurt.
 
Gotta love these false dichotomies.

The rich and the poor BOTH benefit, as it is the middle class that is being hurt.

Could not agree more .. the wealthy need tax increases and the middle class need tax cuts
 
The Rich gain the most benefit as a whole from government. They are protected from those who'd take their wealth by force, they are given an environment where their riches can be made, etc.

That said...

The Government also gains the most benefit from the Rich. I don't know anyone who suggests the Rich shouldn't be paying more in total dollars to the government than the poor. The issues I hear is people being upset with making the Rich pay even more than the ridiculously large portion they already pay.

Yes, the Rich benefit from the government in a larger degree. They also pay far more money into the government. The government gets far more benefit in terms of dollars from the Rich than the non-rich. Your suggestion is correct, your assertion that its somehow an excuse to raise taxes further on the rich is not.
 
The Rich gain the most benefit as a whole from government. They are protected from those who'd take their wealth by force, they are given an environment where their riches can be made, etc.

That said...

The Government also gains the most benefit from the Rich. I don't know anyone who suggests the Rich shouldn't be paying more in total dollars to the government than the poor. The issues I hear is people being upset with making the Rich pay even more than the ridiculously large portion they already pay.

Yes, the Rich benefit from the government in a larger degree. They also pay far more money into the government. The government gets far more benefit in terms of dollars from the Rich than the non-rich. Your suggestion is correct, your assertion that its somehow an excuse to raise taxes further on the rich is not.

Actually, my assertion that the rich should pay more via closing tax loopholes and reducing taxes on the middle class using the additional funds received from closing those loopholes is the most fair thing to do. If we want a country that encourages upward class movement we need to increase wages and stop letting the middle class shoulder so much taxes, while instead closing loopholes for the wealthy and forcing them to stick to the current progressive tax system.
 
Che Guevara was a murdering psychopath. He's credited with at least 500 murders and in a letter to his father said, "I'd like to confess, Papa, at that moment I discovered that I really like killing."

Either your lack of education is showing or you need to move to the socialist paradise called Cuba.
 
Gotta love these false dichotomies.

The rich and the poor BOTH benefit, as it is the middle class that is being hurt.
Statistically I’m a member of the rich. I have more wealth to protect, two homes, one in a very nice location. We travel frequently, 30,000 miles on our car in one year at least 25K of that was for pleasure. The state provided security, roads, rest stops to support my pleasure. Government protects our investments, investments that the poor don’t have and that the middle class has very little of. The feds regulate the vendors of our meds, Dr.s, investment firms, in a way that protects us. And we pay very low taxes, except a certain property tax, because how we have set up things. Generally in a free market people are charged according to the value of what is being protected and how much of certain services are used. Not in our case. Sorry.
 
The Rich actually use the majority of government services and entitlements.

"Say what? Yeah i know it sounds counter intuitive.
But the massive military is there to protect Americans wealth. The top 10% has 80% of that.. so 80% of military expenditures is to protect the wealthy. And we can see it directly when we sent the military to save the US captain caught by somali pirates. (think that costs a dime or two?)

The nations highway system is enjoyed by all, but mostly by commercial traffic to get the wealthy products to places where they can sell to you.

Sure the poor fly now and then, but for the most part the airports support those that have meetings and business adventures or vacations.

the rich fly more.

when californian fights forest fires to protect houses they are mainly protecting the houses of the wealthy, even when they go into poor neighborhoods, most of those people rent from the wealthy."

Read more ways that the rich benefit most from government services here:
Newsvine - The Rich actually use the majority of government services and entitlements.
 
Ha!
The middle class is biggest benefactor of government services, dollar for dollar.
Please explain dollar for dollar. Is it their wealth vs. what they get. Is What they pay in taxes vs. what they get. Is it what they are worth as an contributor to society vs. what they get. Please inform us. thx
 
any proof of that? so tell me

do 47% of the voters who pay NO INCOME tax use less government benefits that are funded by the income tax than one guy making say 1,5 million a year who pays several hundred thousand in income taxes yearly>

It is your position that he uses more than 100 million people combined?

Bailouts, TARP, Stimulus, corporate lobbyists, tax breaks...
 
Please explain dollar for dollar. Is it their wealth vs. what they get. Is What they pay in taxes vs. what they get. Is it what they are worth as an contributor to society vs. what they get. Please inform us. thx

I can't remember the exact name for this theory but originally, people thought that in a pluralistic society, the middle class and the poor would align themselves and dominate over the rich.
As it turns out, the middle class dominates over the rich and the poor.
Taxation rates and deductions, along with social benefits tend to flow to the middle class the most.
 
I can't speak for U.S. Socialist. but I don't think that's what he was suggesting. To my understanding he's an advocate of Libertarian Socialism, (Real Libertarianism.) not some monolithic Soviet-style bureaucracy. So am I, incidentally, although, I am not a Marxist.
its fun watching socialists pretend that their faux brand of libertarian thought is authentic. it is not. If you support government redistribution of income you are not a libertarian you are a collectivist
 
its fun watching socialists pretend that their faux brand of libertarian thought is authentic. it is not. If you support government redistribution of income you are not a libertarian you are a collectivist
:lamo
Oh Turtle always posting great intellectual responses :applaud
 
The Rich actually use the majority of government services and entitlements.

"Say what? Yeah i know it sounds counter intuitive.
But the massive military is there to protect Americans wealth. The top 10% has 80% of that.. so 80% of military expenditures is to protect the wealthy. And we can see it directly when we sent the military to save the US captain caught by somali pirates. (think that costs a dime or two?)

The nations highway system is enjoyed by all, but mostly by commercial traffic to get the wealthy products to places where they can sell to you.

Sure the poor fly now and then, but for the most part the airports support those that have meetings and business adventures or vacations.

the rich fly more.

when californian fights forest fires to protect houses they are mainly protecting the houses of the wealthy, even when they go into poor neighborhoods, most of those people rent from the wealthy."

Read more ways that the rich benefit most from government services here:
Newsvine - The Rich actually use the majority of government services and entitlements.

an opinion of some blogger based on opinion and unsupported facts? LOL complete BS
 
I can't speak for U.S. Socialist. but I don't think that's what he was suggesting. To my understanding he's an advocate of Libertarian Socialism, (Real Libertarianism.) not some monolithic Soviet-style bureaucracy. So am I, incidentally, although, I am not a Marxist.

There is no Libertarian Socialism, just like there is no Libertarian left or right. Libertarian socialist are really just socialist, while people that say they there is a such thing as a libertarian left are really just communists. You continue to show you are confused on leans. It started with you saying you are anarchist, but you support UHC, and now there is this where you say some load about the existence of a libertarian socialist.
 
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There is no Libertarian Socialism, just like there is no Libertarian left or right. Libertarian socialist are really just socialist, while people that say they there is a such thing as a libertarian left are really just communists.

One of the fake libertarians told me that people cannot be free unless they have homes and food so the government taking the wealth of the productive to feed and house the unproductive is justified to increase freedom. Its like saying someone cannot be free unless things that bother him are eradicated so the government should shoot anyone who voices opinions that bother the sensitive so the sensitive can be free.

Part of freedom is the freedom to fail and not have anyone forced to bail the failure out through force of government
 
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