View Poll Results: Who benefits the most?

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  • Rich.

    35 32.11%
  • Poor.

    74 67.89%
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Thread: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

  1. #231
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    want real proof of who benefits the most from government? ask yourself who on these threads want more government?



  2. #232
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    a silly semantic argument. Using libertarian as generally accepted in the USA among both popular culture and those trained in political science, to describe a socialist redistribution of income is improper
    Obviously, yes (not the "silly semantic" part, which is beneath you, by the way, and not at all compelling), but this has absolutely nothing to do with the post to which I responded.

    This is what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    its fun watching socialists pretend that their faux brand of libertarian thought is authentic. it is not. If you support government redistribution of income you are not a libertarian you are a collectivist
    I responded to this by pointing out that there is a notion of libertarianism - one that is several decades older than libertarianism in the modern sense, and one that was specifically addressed in the post to which you were responding - that actually would involve a hybrid notion of communism and anarchism (i.e. would embrace collective notions of property while rejecting the notion that the government should even exist, let alone redistribute anything), and would be wildly distinguishable from from libertarianism in the modern sense.

    In short, my argument is not semantic, it's historical.
    Last edited by Aderleth; 08-18-11 at 12:57 AM. Reason: grammar

  3. #233
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Obviously, yes (not the "silly semantic" part, which is beneath you, by the way, and not at all compelling), but this has absolutely nothing to do with the post to which I responded.

    This is what you said:



    I responded to this by pointing out that there is a notion of libertarianism - one that is several decades older than libertarianism in the modern sense, and one that was specifically addressed in the post to which you were responding - that actually would involve a hybrid notion of communism and anarchism (i.e. would embrace collective notions of property while rejecting the government even existing, let alone redistributing anything), and would be wildly distinguishable from from libertarianism in the modern sense.

    In short, my argument is not semantic, it's historical.
    socialism is contrary to current libertarian thought which is essentially true liberalism



  4. #234
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    socialism is contrary to current libertarian thought which is essentially true liberalism
    How is it "true" libertarianism if the term was appropriated by people you would consider to be either socialists or collectivists (or some other similar term along those lines)? Saying something like that is just as stupid as someone saying that modern liberalism is "true" liberalism. It doesn't mean anything, and it certainly doesn't contribute to rejecting the existence of a concept that pretty obviously does exist.

  5. #235
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    How is it "true" libertarianism if the term was appropriated by people you would consider to be either socialists or collectivists (or some other similar term along those lines)? Saying something like that is just as stupid as someone saying that modern liberalism is "true" liberalism. It doesn't mean anything, and it certainly doesn't contribute to rejecting the existence of a concept that pretty obviously does exist.
    what do you think the term libertarian means to 98% of those who actually understand political science in the USA. Rand Paul Ed Clark etc or socialist income redistribution?



  6. #236
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    want real proof of who benefits the most from government? ask yourself who on these threads want more government?
    Those who claim to want to help the poor are the ones who demand more government.

    that is a rather damning argument that they think government benefits the rich more since they oppose the rich. If they really thought government benefits the rich more than the poor, these advocates for the poor would want LESS GOVERNMENT

    QED



  7. #237
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what do you think the term libertarian means to 98% of those who actually understand political science in the USA. Rand Paul Ed Clark etc or socialist income redistribution?
    How is that relevant to the point that I'm making? Especially considering that the post to which I'm responding (i.e. the post that you made) was, itself, a response to a post that explicitly addressed another version of the term libertarian?

    To take this another direction, two posts back you asserted the existence of a "true" liberalism (by which I assume you mean classical liberalism). How is that "true" liberalism if 98% of those who use that term don't apply it that way?
    Last edited by Aderleth; 08-18-11 at 01:34 AM.

  8. #238
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    want real proof of who benefits the most from government? ask yourself who on these threads want more government?
    LOL! Is that evidence in the "court" of Turtledude??? How about we break down each government service and determine who derives the most benefit. We can start with the military and wars. The military and wars are to protect the nations wealth. The Rich own 80% of the wealth in the country, so their share of costs for the military and wars is 80%
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #239
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    "Communists like him have no idea how you reach civil liberties just like libertarian socialist of today have no idea how you manage it"
    That isn't describing a conspiracy theory. Now if you were to say I'm calling them retarded I would have to agree.

  10. #240
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    You're arguing against the underlying value or utility of the political philosophy in question. This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, which is that the political philosophy does exist, and was the linguistic basis of the term libertarianism. I frankly couldn't care less about whether or not it's a viable system.
    The problem and what I have been getting at is he came up with a new term to just talk about communism to further the idea it protects liberty when it doesn't. That is why I said they are just communists because frankly they are.

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