View Poll Results: Who benefits the most?

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  • Rich.

    35 32.11%
  • Poor.

    74 67.89%
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Thread: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

  1. #221
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    [QUOTE=TheDemSocialist;1059736291]
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post

    Of course you did pay your taxes, cuz apparently a historic low tax rate just isnt low enough for you because the rest of us are "government freeloaders"... But are you saying that the rich did not benefit from thees programs?
    I didn't and many other of those who pay far more of the taxes than we should did not benefit. But everyone who does not pay federal income taxes still benefits from the government that those taxes fund



  2. #222
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    You'll have to forgive me if I don't take this sort of thing seriously. It's mindless and provides no value to the debate.
    when you become the arbiter of what is valuable I suspect that would matter. Your post is of the same nature as of that which you complained.



  3. #223
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    when you become the arbiter of what is valuable I suspect that would matter. Your post is of the same nature as of that which you complained.
    I don't disagree (except, to the extent, that I probably have a greater appreciation of sarcasm than you do), but, prior to that, I successfully pointed out how you were wrong, and you failed to argue against that. Put another way, I accomplished the goal I intended to accomplish.

  4. #224
    Educator U.S. Socialist.'s Avatar
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I can't speak for U.S. Socialist. but I don't think that's what he was suggesting. To my understanding he's an advocate of Libertarian Socialism, (Real Libertarianism.) not some monolithic Soviet-style bureaucracy. So am I, incidentally, although, I am not a Marxist.
    That is pretty much what I meant. I have no use for Stalin style bureaucracy. I used to be what some might call a Trotskyist, but the more I learn about him the more I worry that, while I agree with his criticisms of the USSR, I feel his way could be twisted into a Stalinist type state so I am starting to seriously question the Vanguard. Lately I have read a lot about Council Communism which seems to be a much more democratic an grassroots system.

  5. #225
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I don't disagree (except, to the extent, that I probably have a greater appreciation of sarcasm than you do), but, prior to that, I successfully pointed out how you were wrong, and you failed to argue against that. Put another way, I accomplished the goal I intended to accomplish.
    no you didn't. You used the term "libertarian" differently than it is generally used in the USA.



  6. #226
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    no you didn't. You used the term "libertarian" differently than it is generally used in the USA.
    Actually, I pointed out the historical context of the term, which contradicted the statement to which I was responding.

  7. #227
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Socialist. View Post
    That is pretty much what I meant. I have no use for Stalin style bureaucracy. I used to be what some might call a Trotskyist, but the more I learn about him the more I worry that, while I agree with his criticisms of the USSR, I feel his way could be twisted into a Stalinist type state so I am starting to seriously question the Vanguard. Lately I have read a lot about Council Communism which seems to be a much more democratic an grassroots system.
    Yeah, Trotskyism shares that authoritarian streak. Also, there's Trotsky's conduct; his gleeful participation in crushing The Krondstadt Rebellion, and the Makhnovschina, etc. If you're going the Marxist route, I'd look into Anton Pannekoek, also Karl Korsch, Rosa Luxemburg, Gorter, etc.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  8. #228
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Actually, I pointed out the historical context of the term, which contradicted the statement to which I was responding.
    a silly semantic argument. Using libertarian as generally accepted in the USA among both popular culture and those trained in political science, to describe a socialist redistribution of income is improper



  9. #229
    Educator U.S. Socialist.'s Avatar
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    no you didn't. You used the term "libertarian" differently than it is generally used in the USA.
    It doesn't matter if that isn't how it's used in the U.S. He pointed out the historical nature of the term and where it originated from. The fact is Left-libertarianism was the first type of libertarianism. You can reject the validity of the philosophy, but you can't reject the historical fact that it exists and it was the original use of the term libertarianism. I don't know why you are fighting this battle, it isn't over philosophy it's just a matter of who coined the term first. It has no bearing on whether the philosophy is correct or not.

  10. #230
    Educator U.S. Socialist.'s Avatar
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Yeah, Trotskyism shares that authoritarian streak. Also, there's Trotsky's conduct; his gleeful participation in crushing The Krondstadt Rebellion, and the Makhnovschina, etc. If you're going the Marxist route, I'd look into Anton Pannekoek, also Karl Korsch, Rosa Luxemburg, Gorter, etc.
    Yeah I've started reading a few of them, I honestly am very uncomfortable with the idea of a Vanguard. It gives too much power in too few hands.
    Last edited by U.S. Socialist.; 08-18-11 at 12:38 AM.

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