View Poll Results: Who benefits the most?

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  • Rich.

    35 32.11%
  • Poor.

    74 67.89%
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Thread: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

  1. #171
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    They do indeed establish a social order in the absence of government. We've seen it many times; we saw it in Europe after the fall of Rome, and we saw it in Lebanon and Somalia in modern times.

    It is called Warlordism. Whoever can gather a group of armed men willing to fight, kill and die on his orders, rules as much of an area as he can hold against the other warlords around him... for as long as one of his lieutenants doesn't assassinate him and take his place.

    We know what the effects are: trade is stifled, poverty and want are rampant, violence is pandemic and civilization is minimal.
    As far as I'm aware, no-one is suggesting an absence of government. What I, for one, have suggested, is an absence of Nation-States, which is just a particular model of social organization. In order for society to exist, we need structure, we need rules, etc. However, there are different kinds of rules and structures. However; as far as I can tell, there is no law of physics that asserts that humans must be divided into warring, arbitrarily determined tribes, each with it's own seperate economy, tribal myths, where they are taught to fetishize objects and institutions, where the vast majority have very minimal participation, ruled by distant, authoritarian, monolithic institutions. I dare anyone to definitively prove this is the only viable model.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    This is not an environment conducive to anyone, but certainly not conducive to the peaceful and non-coercive accumulation of capital which is the hallmark of the very rich.
    The accumulation of capital has been anything but peaceful, it has been the source of brutal violence both domestically, and abroad. It is also absolutely coercive. The chief freedom accorded to the vast majority of people living under 'capitalism' is their 'right' to starve to death, if, at any point, they should choose to do so. That's not freedom.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  2. #172
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Nobody benefits from big government. As long as there's a government that is hell bent on making more poor people, then poor people will never be able to improve their lives.
    Yes. Apdst. The government wants to make people poor. Because as we all know, societies with high levels of poverty are the ones government can exercise the most control over. You hear that 3rd world?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  3. #173
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    I have to say the poor. The poor benefits from the government through welfare programs, public facilities, etc...
    The first post mentioned about how the rich benefits from the government as the government provides facilities for the rich to gain more monrey such as highways for transportation of goods, radio waves for the rich to advertise, etc... However, the rich can very well manage all of these, and if they are given the chance too, they will, as capitalism has shown. In fact, if the government didn't exist, the rich will flourish as there won't be any taxes or regulations to restrict their economic activity.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

  4. #174
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Other than Welfare and a dew handouts that are just enough to scrape by on I can't imagine how poor people benefit from programs that keep you poor.

  5. #175
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    Other than Welfare and a dew handouts that are just enough to scrape by on I can't imagine how poor people benefit from programs that keep you poor.
    So let me get this straight. Welfare programs keep you poor. By that logic, governments without them would have less poverty. Correct?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #176
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Socialist. View Post
    One of the arguments I've seen from a few posters as to why the rich shouldn't pay more taxes is because they claim the poor benefit the most from the government. I disagree and here is why. The rich use the highway system to ship their goods, they use public airwaves to advertise their goods, they use the courts far more than the poor, if they ship goods by air they have to rely on government air traffic controllers, and I'm sure it costs a lot of money to keep shipping lanes clear and open., especially from troubled parts of the world. The government also gives the energy industry large subsidies.

    However, you could ignore everything I listed above and the fact would remain the the rich depend on the government for their very existence as a social class. The system that allowed them to make their money, capitalism, could not exist without a government.

    The government enforces contracts and protects private property. These two things are necessary for capitalism to exist and neither one of them benefits the poor. If you remove the government from the equation then capitalism will collapse. So if the government decides to tax the rich at 90%, then they should pay without complaining, because every penny they own was made possibly by state violence in favor against the poor. To clarify I should point out that protection of private property does not benefit the poor, because they have own no private property. In this case private property refers to the means of production.
    In a state where every industry and commodity is nationalized and controlled by the government and when the right to property is disregarded, I ask you, who then becomes the rich? You think there's no rich people in Cuba?

  7. #177
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    In a state where every industry and commodity is nationalized and controlled by the government and when the right to property is disregarded, I ask you, who then becomes the rich? You think there's no rich people in Cuba?
    I can't speak for U.S. Socialist. but I don't think that's what he was suggesting. To my understanding he's an advocate of Libertarian Socialism, (Real Libertarianism.) not some monolithic Soviet-style bureaucracy. So am I, incidentally, although, I am not a Marxist.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Come on peoples, look around you.



    It is obvious who benefits most. I just don't see the Rich offering to give up most of the wealth in the country to take advantage of the many "benefits" of being poor. Anyone that claims otherwise is being dishonest, putting it as nicely as I can.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I can't speak for U.S. Socialist. but I don't think that's what he was suggesting. To my understanding he's an advocate of Libertarian Socialism, (Real Libertarianism.) not some monolithic Soviet-style bureaucracy. So am I, incidentally, although, I am not a Marxist.
    Libertarian Socialism has not been proven to be "Real Libertarianism", if there is such a thing.

    I believe the genesis of the concept of socialism originated with Marx. Though I realize all socialists differ in one way or another, I assume they all want greater nationalization of resources and industries. As a "libertarian socialist," I imagine you have some grand theory of people collectivizing while simultaneously individualizing for the greater good of society. I'm not sure how that works.

  10. #180
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Libertarian Socialism has not been proven to be "Real Libertarianism", if there is such a thing.
    Yes it has, and yes there is. The word 'Libertarian' was coined in the late 1700s, first to connote a metaphysical philosophical position. It began to be used to connote a political tendency in the 1850's, specifically; Anarchism and Marxism, which had a very different character from Marxist-Leninism, and the authoritarian permutations that came later. In the 1950's, a group of Americans who were enamored of Ayn Rand, also von Mises, etc., began calling themselves 'Libertarians.' This definition is almost exclusively confined to North America, the rest of the world uses the original definition, which has been used for well over a century. That's the literal definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I believe the genesis of the concept of socialism originated with Marx. Though I realize all socialists differ in one way or another, I assume they all want greater nationalization of resources and industries. As a "libertarian socialist," I imagine you have some grand theory of people collectivizing while simultaneously individualizing for the greater good of society. I'm not sure how that works.
    Socialism has a number of meanings, it's both an economic system, which is usually employed more in the Marxist sense as one of the stages of history in the progression from feudalism to communism, being the final form. Then there's the philosophy, which has a number of different streams. Again; 'Libertarianism' is kind of broad and nonspecific, it encompasses both Anarchism and Marxism, with the exception of Leninism, etc. Speaking in the simplest terms; Marxism is more of an analytical system, Anarchism is more of an ethical and philosophical position. Anarchists have ideas about how the world works, but Anarchism doesn't purport to explain the world. What you're describing sounds more like Marxism. I'm an Anarchist.

    A fairly simplistic definition would be that Anarchism seeks to create an egalitarian society of free individuals without the domination of monolithic institutions which are illegitimate and harmful. That includes Nation-States, corporations, religious institutions, etc. (Anarchism, like Marxism, is also Atheistic, taking a scientific, materialist view of the universe.) Anarchism is more a set of principles, like I said, it's more of a process than a finite goal. However, there are models of what one might, for lack of a better term, call more or less 'fully realized' Anarchist societies, I would say the best of these is Parpolity/Parecon, developed by Prof. Michael Albert, and Prof. Stephen Shalom.

    Participatory politics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Participatory economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    However, I don't think it makes sense to make overly complex and intricate models. We can only anticipate the needs of future generations to a limited extent, and tactics are, to an extent, shaped by the facts on the ground, which differ wildly from place to place, and are prone to changing. What we should do, what we can do, is identify institutions of exploitation and oppression, and dismantle them, and/or replace them with more democratic institutions.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

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