View Poll Results: Who benefits the most?

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  • Rich.

    35 32.11%
  • Poor.

    74 67.89%
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Thread: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

  1. #161
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Socialist. View Post
    Without the government the rich would not exist. Without protection of private property and enforcement of contract your entire system would collapse. The rich owe every penny they have to the government for providing those two essential services. Therefore if the government decides to tax the rich at 90% then the rich had better pay.
    I sympathize with, and support the notion that rich people should pay higher taxes than poor people, but it's not true that the rich wouldn't exist without the government. They would still exist, they'd just be more entrenched and probably better armed.

  2. #162
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If we went by an incredibly simplistic definition, you may have been right, but we have to view these things contextually.
    Having a lot of money ≠ benefiting the most.
    Unless you are referring to internal welfare (spiritual well-being), yes it does. The amount of money and possessions you are able to keep is the measure of your dependence on the social order.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  3. #163
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Unless you are referring to internal welfare (spiritual well-being), yes it does. The amount of money and possessions you are able to keep is the measure of your dependence on the social order.
    No it's not.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #164
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No it's not.
    Okay then explain how you measure dependence on the social order.

  5. #165
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Socialist. View Post
    Okay then explain how you measure dependence on the social order.
    It's difficult to do because we'd have to have a comparison of the exact same people without a "social order" to view it by.
    You guys are also assuming that government establishes the social order and that some groups of people, just don't do it on their own anyway.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  6. #166
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It's difficult to do because we'd have to have a comparison of the exact same people without a "social order" to view it by.
    You guys are also assuming that government establishes the social order and that some groups of people, just don't do it on their own anyway.
    They do indeed establish a social order in the absence of government. We've seen it many times; we saw it in Europe after the fall of Rome, and we saw it in Lebanon and Somalia in modern times.

    It is called Warlordism. Whoever can gather a group of armed men willing to fight, kill and die on his orders, rules as much of an area as he can hold against the other warlords around him... for as long as one of his lieutenants doesn't assassinate him and take his place.

    We know what the effects are: trade is stifled, poverty and want are rampant, violence is pandemic and civilization is minimal.

    This is not an environment conducive to anyone, but certainly not conducive to the peaceful and non-coercive accumulation of capital which is the hallmark of the very rich.

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  7. #167
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No it's not.
    What Goshin said. While there are alternatives to the mixed economies of the modern age, none of them would have enabled the wealthy to reach the summits of prosperity they have.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  8. #168
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    They do indeed establish a social order in the absence of government. We've seen it many times; we saw it in Europe after the fall of Rome, and we saw it in Lebanon and Somalia in modern times.

    It is called Warlordism. Whoever can gather a group of armed men willing to fight, kill and die on his orders, rules as much of an area as he can hold against the other warlords around him... for as long as one of his lieutenants doesn't assassinate him and take his place.

    We know what the effects are: trade is stifled, poverty and want are rampant, violence is pandemic and civilization is minimal.

    This is not an environment conducive to anyone, but certainly not conducive to the peaceful and non-coercive accumulation of capital which is the hallmark of the very rich.
    You helped explain what I was getting at very well. Certainly rich people would exist without government, but the type of rich we have would not. Capitalism would not exist without our modern government to support it.

  9. #169
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Socialist. View Post
    You helped explain what I was getting at very well. Certainly rich people would exist without government, but the type of rich we have would not. Capitalism would not exist without our modern government to support it.
    The early medieval period was particularly the time of warlords or robber barons. Until regional governments became relatively centralized (ie the king actually ruled, and granted charters to trade companies to do biz without being molested, etc) there was no middle class to speak of. As far as I know there weren't any fabulously wealthy commoners until well after Warlordism had begun to give way to the early Renaissance.

    This is one of many reasons why I don't believe in anarchism, (right or left), or indeed any stateless solutions.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #170
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    Re: Who benefits the most from the government? Rich or poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    They do indeed establish a social order in the absence of government. We've seen it many times; we saw it in Europe after the fall of Rome, and we saw it in Lebanon and Somalia in modern times.

    It is called Warlordism. Whoever can gather a group of armed men willing to fight, kill and die on his orders, rules as much of an area as he can hold against the other warlords around him... for as long as one of his lieutenants doesn't assassinate him and take his place.

    We know what the effects are: trade is stifled, poverty and want are rampant, violence is pandemic and civilization is minimal.

    This is not an environment conducive to anyone, but certainly not conducive to the peaceful and non-coercive accumulation of capital which is the hallmark of the very rich.
    Government establishes the legal process, people organically establish the rest of the "social order."
    It's spontaneous.

    So to say that government is the largest part of the social order would be incorrect.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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