How do you feel about men’s versus woman’s rights to their babies?

Bodi · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
It has nothng to do with consent. Both parents are held responsible for the consequences of their actions.

This is obviously not true. She has the choice of opting out of her responsibility and he does not...

Nonsense. Your need to resort to overblown hyperbole undermines the credibility of your argument.

Here we go again... nothing new. My "overblown hyperbole" was obviously directed at yours to show how ridiculous your statement was in the first place. This one:

Maybe he should be locked up or otherwise prevented from having sex.

Equal rights and responsibility; There's nothing sexist about it

That logic didn't work for Separate But Equal racist laws and it doesn't work here... sorry.

sangha · Aug 4, 2011

Bodhisattva said:
This is obviously not true. She has the choice of opting out of her responsibility and he does not...

What you said is obviously not true. Both parents ARE help equally responsible for supporting the children they produce. If it weren't true, we wouldn't be having this debate.

Here we go again... nothing new. My "overblown hyperbole" was obviously directed at yours to show how ridiculous your statement was in the first place. This one:

Maybe he should be locked up or otherwise prevented from having sex.

Click to expand...

My overblown hyperbole was in response to the overblown hyperbole in the post I responded to.

That logic didn't work for Separate But Equal racist laws and it doesn't work here... sorry.

SbE wasn't based on equal rights and equal responsibilties. Sorry (not really)

Red Flag · Aug 4, 2011

DiAnna said:
A foetus is a "potential human being."

Wrong.

Amazon.com: The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 8th Edition (9781416037064): Keith L. Moore, T. V. N. Persaud: Books

Human development is a continuous process that begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm 9spermatazoon) from a male.

Zygote. This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm during fertilization. A zygote or embryo is the beginning of as new human being.

Belgrath has already conceded that

I don't care if Belgrath 'conceded' that the moon is made out of Miracle Whip. It's simply not true.

In fact, he's also stated, amazingly, that there's only a 50% chance it is human at all!

So we've established that Belgrath is totally ignorant of the subject matter and has no place at the table.

From now on I suggest speaking civilly if you wish a civil reply... or any reply at all, for that matter. Thanks.

I have shown more civility than you deserve, liar. If you want civility, then stop lying and be honest. Why can't you people ever be honest about this subject?

Tell me, at what age did your DNA suddenly change into human dna and what were you before that?

Bodi · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
What you said is obviously not true. Both parents ARE help equally responsible for supporting the children they produce. If it weren't true, we wouldn't be having this debate.

Then you are saying that she doesn't have the right to have an abortion? Seriously... why do you bother trying?

My overblown hyperbole was in response to the overblown hyperbole in the post I responded to.

Sure it was... I believe you buddy.

SbE wasn't based on equal rights and equal responsibilties. Sorry (not really)

That is obviously not what my analogy is about... it is about the logic, or lack of, in supporting unequal policies like ABE and Abortion.

Bodi · Aug 4, 2011

Red Flag said:
Wrong.

Amazon.com: The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 8th Edition (9781416037064): Keith L. Moore, T. V. N. Persaud: Books

I don't care if Belgrath 'conceded' that the moon is made out of Miracle Whip. It's simply not true.

So we've established that Belgrath is totally ignorant of the subject matter and has no place at the table.

I have shown more civility than you deserve, liar. If you want civility, then stop lying and be honest. Why can't you people ever be honest about this subject?

Tell me, at what age did your DNA suddenly change into human dna and what were you before that?

Calm down or you will get thread banned or infracted... just a friendly...

sangha · Aug 4, 2011

Bodhisattva said:
Then you are saying that she doesn't have the right to have an abortion? Seriously... why do you bother trying?

No, I did not say that

Sure it was... I believe you buddy.

You are free to believe whatever you wish to believe

That is obviously not what my analogy is about... it is about the logic, or lack of, in supporting unequal policies like ABE and Abortion.

[/QUOTE]

And that is why your analogy fails; because it had nothing to do with equal rights and responsibilities. And there's nothing unequal about the right to have an abortion

A man has just as much right to have an abortion, or any other medical procedure, as a woman does.

Red Flag · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
Because no one forced the man to participate in the promiscous sex.

So all abortions are done because a woman was raped? No? What's that? Guttmachter says it's ~1% Oh, so you have no point? Alright, then, let's move along.

Any man who use the body of another person for their own selfish purposes

Ah, I see. So men never make love and women never **** for fun- men are all necessarily savage, greedy, raping brutes who use women for their own pleasure while all sex is necessarily the rape of a woman, the act of penetration being some great symbolism of her destruction and dehumanization and all that neo-Feminist Studies crap... :lamo

deserves what he gets.

So you're with Mr Obama? Babies are a punishment? You were your mother's punishment for enjoying sex and your father's punishment for the desecration of a woman?

Perhaps you should see a psychologist about those feelings...

And the father is just as responsible for his lack of commitment and his irresponsibility for fathering a child outside of a committed relationship. It takes two schmucks to make a baby outside of a committed relationship.

And, currently, only one has any say in the final decision when it comes to whether or not they'll be a child born. Seems to me like taking that decision unto one's self unilaterally is accepting some mighty responsibility. You don't get to cry about that responsibility after you insist you wanted it.

Or perhaps you think a man should be able to make a woman kill her unborn child? Or maybe you think they can half kill the child?

The abortion is her responsibility and she is the one who will pay the price, both literally and figuratively. But both parents are responsibility for the children they spawn

Make up your mind. Either it's fully her body, decision, and responsibility, or it is not.

Bodi · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
No, I did not say that

Obviously... I guess you would rather dodge the real issue. Fine.

You are free to believe whatever you wish to believe

I wasn't sure until you told me. Thank you.

And that is why your analogy fails; because it had nothing to do with equal rights and responsibilities. And there's nothing unequal about the right to have an abortion

Agreed. The analogy was spot on. Thank you.

A man has just as much right to have an abortion, or any other medical procedure, as a woman does.

The issue is not about medical procedures, it is about ending life and money. Limit yourself as to the scope of the real issue if you like though!

Red Flag · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
The more liberal a state is, the lower the rate of teen pregnancy

More accurately, the lower the rate of teen births. the higher the rate of teen abortions.

Draw your own conclusions.

And the increase in the abortion rate since RvW has a pretty obvious reason for it; It was legal after RvW!!

By that reasoning, rates will drop if it's not legal. If the Left wanted less abortions, they'd call for legal intervention.

sangha · Aug 4, 2011

Bodhisattva said:
Obviously... I guess you would rather dodge the real issue. Fine.

I see you have no argument to make. Fine

I wasn't sure until you told me. Thank you.

You're welcome. Stop in anytime. The advice is free, and worth every penny it costs.

Agreed. The analogy was spot on. Thank you.

That clearly wasn't agreement.

The issue is not about medical procedures, it is about ending life and money. Limit yourself as to the scope of the real issue if you like though!

[/QUOTE]

No, abortion is a medical procedure, And we end life every day, Where do you think all those hamburgers came from?

Red Flag · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
The constitution is clear on this point. All persons, and only persons have rights. Under the law, a person is a human being who has born alive.

A ZEF is not a person and has no rights.

Interesting, an appeal to Law. So if I get a judge to rule that a foetus is a person, as was done with the Peterson trial [since you can't be charged with second-degree murder of a non-person] or change the law to say that Whites and Mormons aren't legal persons...?

Red Flag · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
A fetus is not a human being

Wrong.

Amazon.com: Langman's Medical Embryology (9780683306507): Thomas W. Sadler: Books

sangha said:
I wonder how the people who think a man should have a say in the decision to abort feel about giving the woman a say in the decision to have a vasectomy or chemical castration?

They'd probably think you're a dishonest sack of ****, as those procedures are more comparable to tube-tying or forced birth control than the killing of one's unborn child.

sangha · Aug 4, 2011

Red Flag said:
Interesting, an appeal to Law. So if I get a judge to rule that a foetus is a person, as was done with the Peterson trial [since you can't be charged with second-degree murder of a non-person] or change the law to say that Whites and Mormons aren't legal persons...?

The constitution overrules legislation. And courts are bound by precedent

Bodi · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
I see you have no argument to make. Fine

I see you failed to understand the argument and I'm moving on.

You're welcome. Stop in anytime. The advice is free, and worth every penny it costs.

Agreed... it is worthless.

That clearly wasn't agreement.

You said that you agreed... don't state such next time if you don't agree.

No, abortion is a medical procedure, And we end life every day, Where do you think all those hamburgers came from?

Hamburgers have nothing to do with the abortion debate and only serve to show your inability to manage a proper analogy.

Abortion is a medical procedure, I am glad that you finally realize this. Are you able to now address what I was talking about?

Red Flag · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
No, I did not say that

Then men have a right to kill the unborn child?

Red Flag · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
courts are bound by precedent

And the Peterson trial provides precedent making clear that the unborn child is a person. Else Scott Peterson could not have been charged with second-degree murder for the child's death. You don't get charged with and sent to prison for murder for the death of a non-person.

jamesrage · Aug 4, 2011

naturalrights said:
I have seen a good thread with some good arguments surrounding the issue of men’s rights versus women’s rights to their babies. Should a man have rights to their baby? If so, to what degree should the rights come into play? Should a man be able to force a woman to have his baby? Should a man be forced to pay child support for a baby he stated that he did not want? If you are against abortion, this may not be the best argument to partake in; perhaps a separate poll and or thread can be created to debate “pro-choice” versus “pro-life”. However, if you are able to work within the framework of abortion being legal, feel free to join in.

The way I look at is long as abortion is legal as a means of birth control then the man should be able to legally opt out of any financial responsibilities for the child seeing how the man can not have any say in whether or not the woman has an abortion. If abortion becomes illegal except like to save the life of the mother then father should not be allowed to opt out of any financial responsibilities for the child. I am pro-life/anti-abortion meaning I oppose the legalization of abortion.

sangha · Aug 4, 2011

Bodhisattva said:
I see you failed to understand the argument and I'm moving on.

I understood that what you posted was not an argument

You said that you agreed... don't state such next time if you don't agree.

I don't see how my quote (below) could be interpreted as agreeing with your analogy

And that is why your analogy fails

Hamburgers have nothing to do with the abortion debate and only serve to show your inability to manage a proper analogy.

You spoke about ending life. How do think those hamburgers got there? Do you think there were no lives ended?

Abortion is a medical procedure, I am glad that you finally realize this. Are you able to now address what I was talking about?

If you know that abortion is a medical procedure then why did you say

Bodhisattva said:
The issue is not about medical procedures, it is about ending life and money.

sangha · Aug 4, 2011

Red Flag said:
Then men have a right to kill the unborn child?

They have the right to get an abortion.

sangha · Aug 4, 2011

Red Flag said:
And the Peterson trial provides precedent making clear that the unborn child is a person. Else Scott Peterson could not have been charged with second-degree murder for the child's death. You don't get charged with and sent to prison for murder for the death of a non-person.

No, there is no precedent there

sangha · Aug 4, 2011

jamesrage said:
The way I look at is long as abortion is legal as a means of birth control then the man should be able to legally opt out of any financial responsibilities for the child seeing how the man can not have any say in whether or not the woman has an abortion. If abortion becomes illegal except like to save the life of the mother then father should not be allowed to opt out of any financial responsibilities for the child. I am pro-life/anti-abortion meaning I oppose the legalization of abortion.

The way I look at it is as long as vasectomy and abstinence is legal as a means of birth control, then the man should be held legally responsible for any child he fathers.

Red Flag · Aug 4, 2011

sangha said:
No, there is no precedent there

Oh, so this was already the case and you never had any argument in the first place?

Then why did you waste out time?

Goshin · Aug 4, 2011

Moderator's Warning:

Red Flag... you need to hold the personal accusations of ignorance and dishonesty to a minimum, and debate the topic instead of the poster. That goes for everyone else, also.

naturalrights · Aug 6, 2011

sangha said:
The way I look at it is as long as vasectomy and abstinence is legal as a means of birth control, then the man should be held legally responsible for any child he fathers.

Except that a vasectomy is much more expensive than an early term abortion and it does more damage to the reproductive system than an abortion does. In addition, most women who are trying to get pregnant or who do not use birth control, have miscarriages without even knowing it. Often the woman thinks she is having a "heavy" period when it is actually a still birth. Around 50% of pregnancies are naturally miscarried. Therefore, an early term abortion (the (equivalent to an early term miscarriage) is much less painful, a far less risky and a much less expensive procedure and is far less potentially damaging to the reproductive system than a vasectomy is. Clearly, in trying to keep things fair, a vasectomy and an abortion are not at all comparable.

naturalrights · Aug 6, 2011

sangha said:
The way I look at it is as long as vasectomy and abstinence is legal as a means of birth control, then the man should be held legally responsible for any child he fathers.

In regard to your "abstinence" argument, if abstinence is a legal form of birth control for a man, it is also a legal form of birth control for a woman. Therefore, if both create a fertilized egg, both are equally responsible for the child. As long as abortion is legal, it is only fair for the father to at least have a say in whether he will support the child financially (if the mother decides to keep the baby), since he cannot choose whether or not to keep his child.

I am curious .. are you for or against abortion?

This is a relevant question, because if you are against abortion, then the above reasoning would not apply. However, if you are for abortion, the above reasoning is sound. Simply put, using the above mentioned reasoning, the mother keeps her right to choose (abort or birth) and the father keeps his right to choose as well (support (financially) or not support the mother's decision to birth the baby). I don't see how this is not fair .. it seems like the most logical and reasonable compromise available to us currently.

How do you feel about men’s versus woman’s rights to their babies?

What about men’s versus woman’s rights to their babies? Select all that apply

Regardless of the woman’s choice, men should choose whether their baby will be born or not

A woman should be able to choose whether to give birth or not, regardless of the man’s choice

If the man doesn’t want a baby, he should be able to choose whether to give financial support or not

I am “pro-choice” (I think women should be able to choose to abort their babies if they want to)

I am "pro-life" (against abortion)

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