View Poll Results: What about menís versus womanís rights to their babies? Select all that apply

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  • Regardless of the womanís choice, men should choose whether their baby will be born or not

    0 0%
  • A woman should be able to choose whether to give birth or not, regardless of the manís choice

    20 50.00%
  • If the man doesnít want a baby, he should be able to choose whether to give financial support or not

    20 50.00%
  • I am ďpro-choiceĒ (I think women should be able to choose to abort their babies if they want to)

    24 60.00%
  • I am "pro-life" (against abortion)

    8 20.00%
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Thread: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

  1. #71
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgarath View Post
    Thereís something that upsets me about the killing of beings that science has yet to prove arenít human. Until someone can provide evidence that the unborn is not a human being, I will feel unhappy about killing them.
    I'm glad your feelings aren't the basis of the law. In any case, ZEFs are human. But being human doesn't automatically bestow the rights of personhood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgarath View Post
    Closing down abortion clinics is the first thing that comes to mind.
    More illegal abortion clinics which are dangerous and unregulated will replace them.
    ďIn politics, stupidity is not a handicap.Ē -Napoleon

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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgarath View Post
    No, but I recognize that the odds are against the unborn ever being given the right to live- at least not within my lifetime. So I am saying that, until the world recognizes that right, the man should be given the right to save his own child.
    Should we recognize this 'right'? If so, why? And how do we determine what entities shall be granted this 'right'?

    Pregnancy is a predictable consequence. Consequences happen when you do actions. By taking part in the action, regardless of the action and the consequence, you open yourself up to the consequence. The possibility of getting pregnant is the consequence of having sex. Itís not a punishment- itís a result. Thereís a difference.
    So we should ban contraceptives and HPV vaccines, lest people enjoy life and eachother without consequence? What about bicycle helmets, seatbelts in cars, and vaccinations against rabies?


    It doesnít matter how inefficient we are when making babies. The case is very simple: youíre free to enjoy sex, do it whenever you want and however you want as far as I am concerned. But if you get pregnant as a result, you have to recognize it as your responsibility. You took the risk, nature took its course, and you got pregnant.
    So... should we not set broken bones or allow smokers to receive treatment for asthma or cancer? If you take a shower and slip and break a hip, we shouldn't let you seek medical attention?

    Itís now your responsibility as a mother to hold the child for 9 months.
    Why? Aside from your desire to punish her for her sexuality, I mean.



    I find it interesting the way the crazed Right and loony Left seem to come from the same place on this one.
    When birth occurs, I donít care if you keep the child or you give it up for adoption.
    So it's not about parental responsibility after all...

    But up until that point, if you get an abortion as far as I am concerned youíre murdering a helpless child.
    Define: muder

    Is it murder to break a vase or step on an ant? Is it murder to kill you or bask ET's brains in with a bat for fun? We're back to the first question.

  3. #73
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    More illegal abortion clinics which are dangerous and unregulated will replace them.
    Abortions have become more popular since RvW...

    Why can your daughters find a backalley abortionist but not a condom or a backalley doctor willing to give her the pill or an IUD?

  4. #74
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    I find it interesting that we're primarily arguing between equality in right to veto and strictly the woman's right? Maybe to barter for the fair price I should have underbid by suggesting the man solely chooses?

  5. #75
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    I'm glad your feelings aren't the basis of the law. In any case, ZEFs are human. But being human doesn't automatically bestow the rights of personhood.
    Cool. I've had this argument enough for today- maybe we can have this discussion another day. If you want to find my arguments, by now they're repeated across like 3 threads related to abortion.


    More illegal abortion clinics which are dangerous and unregulated will replace them.
    I agree that that's a big problem. Unfortunately, it's the same problem people who are anti-drug are having (I'm for the legalization of drugs). You don't want to them to be legal, because you're convinced they're immoral and dangerous to society, but on the other hand making them illegal just makes the black market drug trade even worse, and results in way too much time spent by the police catching drug dealers when they should be catching murderers and rapists. I honestly can't claim to have an answer to that- I don't even know that there is one. It's a sad case in our society, when people (whether abortionists, child molesters, or murderers) ignore the morality, the rights of all human beings, and their own conscience to do terrible things.

  6. #76
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Look...this is getting ridiculous. We have too many abortion-related threads. I have written something like the equivalent of 5 pages on this subject. Can the Mods like merge these threads somehow or something? Because this is getting kinda ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Flag View Post
    Should we recognize this 'right'? If so, why? And how do we determine what entities shall be granted this 'right'?
    We should recognize that the unborn have a 50% chance of being persons, we already know they’re human, so we shouldn’t kill them anymore than we should kill anyone else. The only entities that should be granted this right are human beings. If you can’t prove they’re not human beings, though, you shouldn’t kill them.

    So we should ban contraceptives and HPV vaccines, lest people enjoy life and eachother without consequence? What about bicycle helmets, seatbelts in cars, and vaccinations against rabies?
    I didn’t say that. My argument is against taking a life that was created out of the consequences of your actions because you don’t like the consequences. You’re creating analogies that don’t correspond to anything I’m saying. I don’t mind people having sex in whatever manner whenever they please. I don’t mind people wearing helmets, seatbelts, or getting vaccinations. I have a very specific complain. Don’t kill people because of you don’t like the consequences of your actions.

    So... should we not set broken bones or allow smokers to receive treatment for asthma or cancer? If you take a shower and slip and break a hip, we shouldn't let you seek medical attention?
    I didn’t say any of that. None of that is killing someone. Are the smokers killing anyone by receiving treatment? Are you killing someone by replacing their hip? I didn’t think so. None of these actions have the possibility of killing a human being.
    Why? Aside from your desire to punish her for her sexuality, I mean.
    Get your facts straight. There is no punishment involved. Those are the consequences of her actions. When she had sex, she opened up the possibility of bearing a child. She is free to have sex whenever and however she wants, using whatever contraceptives and whatnot she wants, but the only guaranteed way to not have a child is not to have sex. Becoming pregnant was a consequence of her choices. Killing a possible human being is not an appropriate response to any consequence.

    Define: muder
    mur•der/ˈmərdər/
    Noun: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

    Is it murder to break a vase or step on an ant? Is it murder to kill you or bask ET's brains in with a bat for fun? We're back to the first question.
    I responded to what murder is above. The unborn has the possibility of being human. Therefore, you are possibly killing a human being, possibly committing murder- I certainly do not approve.

  7. #77
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgarath View Post
    We should recognize that the unborn have a 50% chance of being persons
    Huh? How do you figure that?
    we already know theyíre human
    And?
    so we shouldnít kill them anymore than we should kill anyone else
    So... what about the braindead?
    Donít kill people
    What's a people? You keep avoiding that question.
    killing a human being
    What about it? So, it's human. What of it? ET's not a human. Does that make it okay to torture him and perform a vivsection without anesthesia because it sounds like fun?

    Can I cook your cat alive in my oven? It's not human, which is all you keep babbling about.
    Becoming pregnant was a consequence
    -which she deserves to suffer... You can dress it up however you like, but we all see your line for what it is.
    murēder/ˈmərdər/
    Noun: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
    So it's not murder, because it's legal. Therefore your entire argument falls apart. Care to try again?
    The unborn has the possibility of being human
    As opposed to what? Do you think your wife got knocked up by the dog? Might fido be the real babydaddy?

    It is human, it might be human, it could become human some day- will you please pick one line of crap and stick with it? You keep going around in circles trying to catch your own tail.

  8. #78
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    1. The unborn is human. We've accepted that. People=human being. The question is: is it a human being or not. We know it will become one. The question is when and there's no scientific evidence for when that occurs, but everyone accepts it is a human being at birth. Therefore, the question is: when does it become a human being. At any time from conception to birth, there is a 50% chance it is human.

    2. The reason I said "we already know that they're human" is to support the above point.

    3. Those who are in a coma sometimes have signed a paper indicating whether or not they wish the plug pulled. For the rest- I'm not 100% sure. On the one hand, there's no absolute reason to believe they'll come out of it. On the other, they still might. I would say when feasible, keep them alive. Better to be safe than sorry.

    4. A person is a human being.

    5. We have animal cruelty laws. Since we have yet to encounter aliens, as far as I am aware of there is no law regarding them. However, I would say that if they come in peace, we should treat them with all the same respect we give each other. If they come with threats of violence and destruction, and there is no other possible course of action, we can fight back in self defense.

    6. I do not believe that any woman deserves to suffer. I believe that a woman who has sex opens herself up to the possibility of pregnancy.

    7. Just because something is currently legal doesn't mean it should be. If murder is no longer murder because it's legal, than Hitler didn't murder the Jews and the Romans didn't murder Christians. I believe that murder answers to a higher court of law than the human government system. When a human being is killed, murder occurs. The only valid excuse that I am currently aware of is in a self defense situation where killing your opponent is the only available method to save your own life.

    8. I apologize- I should have said the possibility of being a human being. Does that make that more clear?

  9. #79
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    A man should have the choice of wanting the child, when he finds out that it is actually his.
    Once he is informed, he should be given a time period to make or not make a committed choice.

    The options for parenthood should be equal for both parties involved.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    óAdam Shepard

  10. #80
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The options for parenthood should be equal for both parties involved.
    and there you have it
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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