View Poll Results: What about menís versus womanís rights to their babies? Select all that apply

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  • Regardless of the womanís choice, men should choose whether their baby will be born or not

    0 0%
  • A woman should be able to choose whether to give birth or not, regardless of the manís choice

    20 50.00%
  • If the man doesnít want a baby, he should be able to choose whether to give financial support or not

    20 50.00%
  • I am ďpro-choiceĒ (I think women should be able to choose to abort their babies if they want to)

    24 60.00%
  • I am "pro-life" (against abortion)

    8 20.00%
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Thread: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

  1. #51
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    You know, though - sometimes women don't have a say on things, either - when it comes to the financial aspect of having a child.

    I, for example, battled the state for a ridiculously long time to end my ex husband's child support garnishments. Once I married and my husband wanted to adopt the boys I saw it as an ethical wrong to still garnish support. The state, however, blunted to a 'it's for the kids - you can't say "no" even if you want to.' stance on the issue. They wouldn't let me end garnishment.

    When my husband officially adopted the boys they finally ended concurrent garnishment (which is what adds up each month) but wouldn't end arrears: they were still garnishing his wages to pay those off. So then I had to argue with them some more -a nd they still said 'no, not even if you want to end it - unless a judge says you can.' So we put in for another court-hearing on that, the judge denied it (which was absurd).

    So I started to just send the money back to him and his family each month - that was less of a headache that pressing the courts and legal system again for something - in my view - should never have been a hassle. The children were being taken care of adequately - I should have been able to end the garnishments of his pay when I wanted to.
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Then men need to put down a cash deposit that would equal the amount of an abortion before having sex.
    Yes, because the woman has no role to play and no options available to her if she wished to avoid pregnancy...

    I remember a time when women wanted to be equal and independent, making their own decisions and being responsible for their own lives and decisions...

    What ever happened to that?
    Regardless if a guy isn't ready to be a daddy, then he damn well better pony up for the cost of an abortion if the woman declares that she will abort if she gets pregnant and he still wants to play.
    Why? She has decided to risk pregnancy and already decided on a course of action if that occurs. If she does not secure any commitment from the man before proceeding, why should she not be responsible for her decision?

    You seem to think women are mentally deficient creatures incapable of forethought and personal responsibility. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps they neither need nor want for your paternalistic 'looking after' them?

  3. #53
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    It's not like it's some happy, wonderful joyous issue ot deal with.
    Nor all that terrible
    <br>
    <br>
    Women having multiple abortions reaches record high - Times Online
    <br>
    <br>
    For some, it might be terrible, for some it might be something awesome (now they can brag to the gals in Feminist Studies about how liberal and self-aware they are). For most, I suspect it's simple something to be done after weighing the options and probable outcomes of different courses of actions, marked by both gain and loss of opportunities and potential life experiences like any other major decision in life.

  4. #54
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Flag View Post
    Nor all that terrible
    <br>
    <br>
    Women having multiple abortions reaches record high - Times Online
    <br>
    <br>
    For some, it might be terrible, for some it might be something awesome (now they can brag to the gals in Feminist Studies about how liberal and self-aware they are). For most, I suspect it's simple something to be done after weighing the options and probable outcomes of different courses of actions, marked by both gain and loss of opportunities and potential life experiences like any other major decision in life.
    From the article:

    “More abortions are now happening at under 10 weeks gestation. This is a key priority for us - to reduce the time women have to wait at what is already a very difficult time,” said Dawn Primarolo, the health minister.
    Good - I support abortion but not abortion for convenience, if it's going ot happen then the earlier the better.

    The under-16 abortion rate was 4.2 per 1,000 and the under-18 rate was 18.9 per 1,000 women, both lower than in 2007.
    Disturbing, here - is that teens under 16 (let alone - 18) are having sex and getting pregnant. But I don't see that 'having a baby' - even 'giving it up for adoption' is remotely a good suggestion. . . the issue should be focused on in different ways.

    The vast majority o abortions - 90 per cent - were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation and three quarters at under 10 weeks Almost 2,000 were conducted because the child would be born handicapped.
    Good - again - less is being performed later.

    But yet - all you and those in the article are doing is look at some statistics and drawing a conclusion without having more information. Questions need some asnwers: are these women who have had multiple abortions being raped and attacked repeatedly? Are they trying to use birth control and it's failing? Are they unable to afford monthly contraception? do they have medical and other problems that are rendering them unable to use birth control (such as allergies to spermacides, inability to pay for a month's supply of pills *every month* - and so on).

    Without these many other qeustions answered we can't actually draw a conclusion.

    But - that being said - this is only a very small percentage overall - the majority, according to the article, are not repeat pregnancies and abortions.

    But: most importantly: why should my right to avoid having a 5th child be taken away because a few other women are immature or immoral or inacapable of avoiding pregnancy to begin with? If I have a 5th they won't be in and out of ICU: likely - that will be me. Nor will they be suffering from post-partum disorders: that, again, would be me. And they won't be nursing for a 5th child (once again - that would be me) and so on . .. you get the point.

    I get tired of people trying to take away something I NEED to have as an option because of what other people do with their lives.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 08-04-11 at 02:05 PM.
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Good - I support abortion but not abortion for convenience, if it's going ot happen then the earlier the better.
    That does not follow. How does an earlier abortion constitute an abortion not done for convenience while it would be for convenience if she had to wait longer to make the baby go away?

    Wouldn't it actually be the earlier access to the procedure that would be more convenient, rather than the other way around?
    Disturbing, here - is that teens under 16 (let alone - 18) are having sex and getting pregnant.
    How is that so disturbing? It's not really new. Hell, in the long view it's progress. Not so long ago in history (and still today in some places) they'd be marries with two children by that age. I'll grant you that it's not ideal (depending on what one considers ideal), but I'm not seeing how it's so disturbing.

    Good - again - less is being performed later.
    This is significant in your view? Care to tell us why?
    are these women who have had multiple abortions being raped and attacked repeatedly?
    No. In fact, the abortion industry estimates that less than one percent of all abortions performed involve rape and these repeat customers account for (according to the article) ~1/3 of the abortions performed. Simple math tells us that to parade rape victims out and exploit their suffering in order to justify repeat customers at the abortion store (which you clearly think is not-okay, or you wouldn't feel the need to parade rape victims out and hide behind their trauma) is, in simple terms- bull****.
    Are they trying to use birth control and it's failing?
    So you assume these women are too stupid to know how to use contraceptives or speak to their doctors about birth control options?
    Are they unable to afford monthly contraception
    How much is the pill, assuming one doesn't know where to find a clinic and receive information on free contraceptives? How much does it cost to not have unprotected sex? How much is an abortion?
    But - that being said - this is only a very small percentage overall
    One third is not a 'very small percentage'. Why the dishonesty, if there's nothing wrong with what these women are doing?

  6. #56
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    More importantly - why does this matter?

    I mean, abortion isn't cheap, it isn't easy for some women, and repeated abortions OR miscarriages can cause scarring so it's obviously ideal is accidental pregnancies never happen, or at least don't happen multiple times.

    But what exactly are you shooting at?

    To me, based on the "typical use" failure rates of all non-inserted/surgical contraceptives being so much higher than it needs to be, this is probably the result of so many years of "abstinence only sex-ed." Neither sex seems to have a consistently firm grasp on how to use contraception. It's true this can be remedied by doing some simple homework, but once you've taught kids sex is evil and contraception doesn't work they're unlikely to do it.

  7. #57
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    It seems as if Red Flag and I have very similar opinions on this issue. I want to make the technical argument that what grows inside the female is not strictly a part of her body. If this were the case then intercourse would not be necessary for pregnancy. The child growing inside literally contains the DNA of not only the mother, but also the father. If either individual is certain they are not prepared for a child then they have a choice to either masturbate or use preventative measures which still involve slight risk. If you take a risk and are dissatisfied with the outcome, then deal with it, take responsibility for your actions, and learn from your stupid mistakes. I reiterate that either party should be able to say they want the child. Financially, custody should reflect financial support. If one parent didn't want the child then perhaps their support is 25%. Otherwise, split it directly proportional to length of custody. My blood boils at how many people expect to be able to filter the consequences of their actions to only those which convenience them and not the responsibilities.

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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    this is probably the result of so many years of "abstinence only sex-ed."
    Except that abortions rates remain high in states like California (5th in the nation), where you'd have a hard time arguing anything like 'abstinence only' has been seen. Now, the high rates of out-of-wedlock teen births in certain conservative states seem to indicate that AOE is a factor in teen pregnancy rates, but AOE is unable to explain the increase in abortions and teen pregnancies since RvW passed.

    Perhaps we should be looking at social-cultural factors that influence sexual promiscuity among our youth. Indeed it seems the more 'liberal' a woman is, the more likely she and her daughters to be sexually promiscuous. One must wonder why these girls know how to find the abortion store, but not a drug store. One would think condoms or the pill would be easier to find than an abortionist if one were actually thinking ahead and practicing personal responsibility.

    Neither sex seems to have a consistently firm grasp on how to use contraception. It's true this can be remedied by doing some simple homework, but once you've taught kids sex is evil and contraception doesn't work they're unlikely to do it.
    They're also unlikely to bother when you teach them that they can simply make the baby go away...

  9. #59
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    People are responsible for the consequences of their actions, whether they desired those consequences or not. The actions or inactions of others does not absolve them of their responsibilities.

    This is a long-standing legal principle, enshrined in our laws. For some reason, some men think they deserve "special rights" when they screw
    No one has special rights here. Both men and women should be able to choose for themselves whether or not to be parents without government involvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Or to have a parent who makes it clear you weren't wanted or you interrupted the life they had planned to lead for themselves. Forcing obligation on to somebody can be more harmful for the child long-term than the child being raised by a single parent with limited financial resources.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I think the notion of men being able to end their parental rights should be more widespread and easily obtainable in situations like this. . . rather than forcing an abortion.
    Definitely. It would solve so many problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Then men need to put down a cash deposit that would equal the amount of an abortion before having sex.

    Regardless if a guy isn't ready to be a daddy, then he damn well better pony up for the cost of an abortion if the woman declares that she will abort if she gets pregnant and he still wants to play.

    And the guy better make a very clear declaration BEFORE having sex that he won't in anyway participate in any expenses of a baby should she get pregnant.

    Then if she still wants to do it...have fun and be willing to take on whatever the consequences.
    Both people should be aware that pregnancy is a possibility before sex. That's rather obvious.
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    Re: How do you feel about menís versus womanís rights to their babies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Flag View Post
    Are you also unqualified to pay for a child until such time as you can make the determination as to whether a pregnancy proceeds forth and you become a parent?
    You assume much, don't you? Yes, I would have supported any child of mine, if it's any of your business. I also married a woman with two existing kids and raised and supported them. They are still my kids. Until such a time that I can become pregnant I have no right to attempt to make that decision for another, in reality not even then would I have the right to make such a decision. If you as a man want a breeder, then go find one, but to try to force an unwilling woman to carry your git is unreasonable.

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