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What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

TurtleDude said:
this is a silly rant from you. try again.
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Rant?
Very well Turtle, I will admit that if you do one thing, all you have to do is tell me which part of this post is false?
 
presluc said:
So you're telling me that Haliburtian didn't benifit frm getting a no bid contract?

You're telling me that the ceo's of Bear Sterns, AIG ,FREDDY MAC ,FANNY MAE GMC ect GOT NOTHING FROM THE GOVERNMENT?

Cheap labor high prices low taxes the corporations don't cash in on that ?
Without outsourceing there would be no free trade
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For your claim to have any relevance you would have to show that most of us in the top tax bracket benefited from that

we did not

so try to find something that establishes that those who pay a huge share of the income tax actually were given direct government benefits that the masses do not enjoy
 
presluc said:
Rant?
Very well Turtle, I will admit that if you do one thing, all you have to do is tell me which part of this post is false?
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what relevance does this have to the butt hurt whining about the tax cut for those who pay too much of the income tax?
 
TurtleDude said:
The claim is that the richest set of taxpayers (who pay a huge amount of the income tax) somehow get more government benefits than the people who pay less than them (Ie the bottom 89% or so) is based on such specious claims.

The majority of those in the top tax bracket are not getting such benefits from lobbying and that is not a government given benefit anyway
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Well, definitely agreed. But like I've said before that's the whole point of social government programs; people who have more money pay more into the system to help those who have less money get access to essential benefits they could otherwise not afford.

What happens next is that those poor people, who now don't have to worry about their most basic and essential needs, can spend more time educating themselves, and ultimately land a nice job at a good company, contributing added value to the rich person who owns it (who originally paid taxes to help pull the poor person out of poverty earlier).

Everyone wins.
 
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TurtleDude said:
The claim is that the richest set of taxpayers (who pay a huge amount of the income tax) somehow get more government benefits than the people who pay less than them (Ie the bottom 89% or so) is based on such specious claims.

The majority of those in the top tax bracket are not getting such benefits from lobbying and that is not a government given benefit anyway
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Ah, you keep forgetting something turtle perhaps you are slow.
The majority of those in the top tax bracket is the minority of Americans.

So somewhere somebody in the top tax bracket benifits from these issues .
It's not benifiting the poor
It's not benifiting the working poor or Lower Middle or Middle class.

So who does that leave ?
Sure as Hell ain't the average American.

Leaving the minotity at the top, in the top tax bracket.:peace
 
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David D. said:
Well, definitely agreed. But like I've said before that's the whole point of social government programs; people who have more money pay more into the system to help those who have less money get access to essential benefits they could otherwise not afford.

What happens next is that those poor people, who now don't have to worry on their most basic and essential needs, can spend more time educating themselves, and ultimately land a nice job at a good company, contributing added value to the rich person who owns it (who originally paid taxes to help pull the poor person out of poverty earlier).

Everyone wins.
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We don't win when left wing politicians buy the votes of the poor by telling them they can have more and more handouts or spending and they won't have to pay for it if they vote dem because the dems will merely increase taxes on the rich

America doesn't win when a majority of the voters clamor for more and more government because they don't feel they will have to pay for it but rather they have a limitless credit card that their representatives will force others to pay off.
 
presluc said:
Ah, you keep forgetting something turtle perhaps you are slow.
The majority of those in the top tax bracket is the minority of Americans.

So somewhere somebody in the top tax bracket benifits from these issues .
It's not benifiting the poor
It's not benifiting the working poor or Lower Middle or Middle class.

So who does that leave ?
Sure as Hell ain't the average American.

Leaving the minotity at the top, in the top tax bracket.:peace
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well here is the problem with your silly analysis-perhaps calling me slow is rather stupid given that the top taxpayers pay far more than those other groups so even if the rich benefited universally (in reality its just a few of the uber rich but I would argue employees of Haliburton run the gamut of uber rich to blue collar) they are still paying a ton of tax while those in the bottom 95% pay less income taxes than the top 5% and certainly use more government benefits than the top 5%
 
TurtleDude said:
We don't win when left wing politicians buy the votes of the poor by telling them they can have more and more handouts or spending and they won't have to pay for it if they vote dem because the dems will merely increase taxes on the rich

America doesn't win when a majority of the voters clamor for more and more government because they don't feel they will have to pay for it but rather they have a limitless credit card that their representatives will force others to pay off.
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TD, virtually every congressperson (especially senators) are members of the top 5% (in terms of wealth) in this country.

They're not going to screw themselves and their friends over. It doesn't make any sense for them to do so.

Why do you think the tax cuts for the rich were extended despite the heavy need for extra money in the system just one year ago? Also, why do you think the capital gains tax continues to decrease in %?

If the poor have such a strong voice in our government, how come the top 1% isn't taxed at 70% or higher?
 
David D. said:
TD, virtually every congressperson (especially senators) are members of the top 5% (in terms of wealth) in this country.

They're not going to screw themselves and their friends over. It doesn't make any sense for them to do so.

Why do you think the tax cuts for the rich were extended despite the heavy need for extra money in the system just one year ago? Also, why do you think the capital gains tax continues to decrease in %?

If the poor have such a strong voice in our government, how come the top 1% isn't taxed at 70% or higher?
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the rich are not monolithic. some of us are rich despite the government and others are rich because of the government. The left tends to be the second group/ The Gores, and the Kennedys are prime examples of people who are rich because of their government connections. Same with the Obamas and the Clintons. Being in office is where they get their wealth. And if demanding higher taxes gets them elected they will.

the poor get a great deal from the government. They get a vote and they get fed.
 
TurtleDude said:
well here is the problem with your silly analysis-perhaps calling me slow is rather stupid given that the top taxpayers pay far more than those other groups so even if the rich benefited universally (in reality its just a few of the uber rich but I would argue employees of Haliburton run the gamut of uber rich to blue collar) they are still paying a ton of tax while those in the bottom 95% pay less income taxes than the top 5% and certainly use more government benefits than the top 5%
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So now there's the uber rich and the rich, both get tax cuts both ride the coatails of loophole tax benifits.
So what the hells the differance the rich don't ge as big a check as the uber rich for paying taxes?


Check the employee roster of Haliburtain if you can pronounce their names see how many are paying taxes to America?

You know what's stupid ?
Millions of Americans that want a job to pay taxe no charge just a job.
While the government pays the rich to pay taxes.

There's no way you can have it both ways, either more jobs for the American people , or more taxes for the rich.
One or the other is coming. MORE JOBS OR HIGHER TAXES

Frankly the unemployed that lost their jobs the poor working class don't give a damn about higher taxes.
They got no jobs or a low paying wage they got no money , they will pay no higher taxes.:peace
 
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presluc said:
So now there's the uber rich and the rich, both get tax cuts both ride the coatails of loophole tax benifits.
So what the hells the differance the rich don't ge as big a check as the uber rich for paying taxes?


Check the employee roster of Haliburtain if you can pronounce their names see how many are paying taxes to America?

You know what's stupid ?
Millions of Americans that want a job to pay taxe no charge just a job.
While the government pays the rich to pay taxes.

There's no way you can have it both ways, either more jobs for the American people , or more taxes for the rich.
One or the other is coming. MORE JOBS OR HIGHER TAXES

Frankly the unemployed that lost their jobs the poor working class t don't give a damn about higher taxes.
They got no jobs or a low paying wage they got no money , they will pay no taxes.:peace
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libs on this board have constantly whined about the top 400 or so who pay a lower effective rate than the ordinary rich because that top 400 have mainly lower taxed dividend or LTCG income

those are the people who can manipulate their compensation or even some markets

the reason why we have problems is not due to the vast majority in the top tax bracket. We have problems because too many people want too much government and want other people to pay for it.


and your ranting about loopholes ignores the fact that the top 5% pay more income tax than the rest of the nation and 47% get full citizenship benefits without paying ANY income tax. That is a real loophole.

the top 1% pay 40% of the income tax and make only 22% of the income

almost every other group of americans PAY A LOWER PERCENTAGE OF THE INCOME TAX BURDEN than their share of the INCOME. Now that is a loophole as well



Only a moron would claim that raising taxes on the rich is going to create more jobs
 
Inconvenient facts for supporters of trickle down economics:

"An article in the February 21, 2000 issue of US News and World Report pointed out that the average income of the richest 5 percent of families in 1979 was 10 times of that of the poorest 20 percent of families. In 1999, the income gap had been enlarged to 19 times, ranking first among the developed countries, and setting a record since the Bureau of Census of the United States began studying the situation in 1947.

The income of the executives of the largest US companies in 1992 was 100 times that of ordinary workers, and 475 times higher in 2000.

According to an assessment by the US journal Business Week in August 2000, the income of chief executive officers was 84 times that of employees in 1990, 140 times in 1995, and 416 times in 1999."

Widening Gap Between Rich and Poor
 
All it did was put more money in the pockets of the wealthiest Americans and harm the middle and lower classes, as the government is being forced to cut programs vital to them like education as a result (along with many other factors, the tax cuts are just one)
 
TurtleDude said:
We don't win when left wing politicians buy the votes of the poor by telling them they can have more and more handouts or spending and they won't have to pay for it if they vote dem because the dems will merely increase taxes on the rich

America doesn't win when a majority of the voters clamor for more and more government because they don't feel they will have to pay for it but rather they have a limitless credit card that their representatives will force others to pay off.
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From what I've seen on the news, most rational left-wingers know that major spending cuts to social programs need to occur if these are going to continue to exist. The President even highlighted this in his speech Thursday when discussing Medicare/Medicaid. So to say that left-wingers are giving "more and more handouts" is a bit of a misrepresentation of the situation at hand.

Last time I checked too, the President - a Democrat - agreed to extend the income tax cut on the wealthiest Americans, so what are you whining so much about TD? Do you follow the news at all? You should if you don't already..

And as for the 'limitless credit card'; the current "conservative" GOP is just as guilty as the Dems of perpetuating that sort of government practice, so who does your vote go to? You make it sound like Americans actually have a choice in picking a fiscally conservative mainstream party.
 
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David D. said:
From what I've seen on the news, most rational left-wingers know that major spending cuts to social programs need to occur if these are going to continue to exist. The President even highlighted this in his speech Thursday when discussing Medicare/Medicaid. So to say that left-wingers are giving "more and more handouts" is a bit of a misrepresentation of the situation at hand.

Last time I checked too, the President - a Democrat - agreed to extend the income tax cut on the wealthiest Americans, so what are you whining so much about TD? Do you follow the news at all? You should if you don't already..

And as for the 'limitless credit card'; the current "conservative" GOP is just as guilty as the Dems of perpetuating that sort of government practice, so who does your vote go to? You make it sound like Americans actually have a choice in picking a fiscally conservative mainstream party.
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Agreeing to extend the income tax cut on the wealthiest Americans is one of many decisions of his that I was very upset by. He spent months caving into Republican demands when he should have been showing the American people why what he believed in would work. Unfortunately, in the upcoming election it's going to be a lesser of two evils contest, which will have to be Obama.
 
Voltaire X said:
Agreeing to extend the income tax cut on the wealthiest Americans is one of many decisions of his that I was very upset by. He spent months caving into Republican demands when he should have been showing the American people why what he believed in would work. Unfortunately, in the upcoming election it's going to be a lesser of two evils contest, which will have to be Obama.
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But, the President made the decision of agreeing to extend the tax cuts in exchange for a 13 month extension on unemployment insurance.

In a perfect world, the GOP would grant the President everything we would want with no fight, but he's compromising with a Congress that has equal lawmaking powers, so the left isn't going to be able to get everything they could possibly want.

Either you have him fight for short term stimulus (unemployment) or long term (tax cuts - via left's viewpoint), you can't always have both of these things, especially when you're working within a two-party system that has basically equal control over Washington at the moment.

The POTUS has consistently fought for short-term left-wing type stimulus during his tenure.
 
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David D. said:
But, the President made the decision of agreeing to extend the tax cuts in exchange for a 13 month extension on unemployment insurance.
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True. But this was the only time in history when unemployment benefits were considered a "bargaining" option. When in the history has unemployment benefits ever been on the table for "bargaining" especially in such harsh economic times that we are in now?
Point being unemployment benefits should never be on the table for "compromise" especially in hard economic times when people have little to no control when they are going to loose their jobs because of the economy.

In a perfect world, the GOP would grant the President everything we would want with no fight, but he's compromising with a Congress that has equal lawmaking powers, so the left isn't going to be able to get everything they could possibly want.

Either you have him fight for short term stimulus (unemployment) or long term (tax cuts - via left's viewpoint), you can't always have both of these things, especially when you're working within a two-party system that has basically equal control over Washington at the moment.
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The right wing have lost little to nothing out of their demands with Barack...
 
X Factor said:
Hummm, this topic really must be over my head. I'm missing all the on topic arguments in these posts.
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DemonMyst said:
And your obsession with burdon is evidence of your stupidity..

You consistently fail to consider tax burdon in relation to income?? Why should someone that makes 250k a year pay the same amount as someone that makes 20k a year??

If you are not going to consider income to tax burdon then you have no business talking about taxes.. The rich currently are enjoying the least amount of tax burdon when income in considered.. It is stupid to make the claim that they pay the most taxes and should pay less.. Of course they pay the most.. They make the most.. Why wouldn't they pay the most?? If the rich do not wish to pay their fair share in taxes.. They can trade places with the poor.. I am sure the poor who are now rich will have no issue paying the most taxes..

I will really be glad when you conservatives take a math class..

Simply put, if you are not going to consider income in their tax burdon then you simply have nothing to discuss..
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As usual yes.. You are missing it from the post you were to concerned about my spelling to actually read..

You wouldn't look as stupid if you would just respond to what people say and not play spelling monitor.. Enjoy.. Try to stay on topic this time..
 
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TheDemSocialist said:
True. But this was the only time in history when unemployment benefits were considered a "bargaining" option. When in the history has unemployment benefits ever been on the table for "bargaining" especially in such harsh economic times that we are in now?
Point being unemployment benefits should never be on the table for "compromise" especially in hard economic times when people have little to no control when they are going to loose their jobs because of the economy.


The right wing have lost little to nothing out of their demands with Barack...
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The point is that Unemployment benefits were on the table to be cut and the President had to choose what he was going to fight for. If you didn't like the fact that the GOP was ready to cut the benefits, that's another topic.

The Dems can't control what the GOP thinks and vice versa.
 
I heard that the tax cuts for the wealthy were equivalent to giving them a brand new, decked out, Cadillac Escalade every year.
 
Mickey Shane said:
I heard that the tax cuts for the wealthy were equivalent to giving them a brand new, decked out, Cadillac Escalade every year.
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I've read and previously posted that for those making $250,000 and up, the tax break averages out to $58,000 each year, which is more than the income of 90% of the people in this country. Of course this does not include the loopholes also available to them.
 
TurtleDude said:
libs on this board have constantly whined about the top 400 or so who pay a lower effective rate than the ordinary rich because that top 400 have mainly lower taxed dividend or LTCG income

those are the people who can manipulate their compensation or even some markets

the reason why we have problems is not due to the vast majority in the top tax bracket. We have problems because too many people want too much government and want other people to pay for it.


and your ranting about loopholes ignores the fact that the top 5% pay more income tax than the rest of the nation and 47% get full citizenship benefits without paying ANY income tax. That is a real loophole.

the top 1% pay 40% of the income tax and make only 22% of the income

almost every other group of americans PAY A LOWER PERCENTAGE OF THE INCOME TAX BURDEN than their share of the INCOME. Now that is a loophole as well



Only a moron would claim that raising taxes on the rich is going to create more jobs
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Well, first of all most libs, independents and Americans are asking not whining for more jobs. not only to help the people but the government that trillions of dollars debt isn't going away.
LESS TAX REVENUE CAN NOT PAY OFF THE DEBT THE LOANS AND KEEP THIS GOVERNMENT GOING NO MATTER ALL SMALL IT GETS.

Didn't say raiseing the taxes on the rich would create more jobs.
It will create more funding for the pentagon and other government agencies, and protect the salaries of politicians
It will make the rich a little less rich.
And working Americans will wait while they stay the same buying less from rich corporations.
If the rich corporations don't want to hire Americans to help pay taxes, fine let the rich carry the burden workers will wait.
Only a moron would think the Pentagon will take less money or the CIA ,FBI,HOMELAND SECUROTY. or Haliburtain or any other defence contractor, or any Politicaian takeing a cut in pay or benifits or secret service and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
The rich may be paying more but with jobs leaving eventualy it won't be enough.:peace
 
Catawba said:
I've read and previously posted that for those making $250,000 and up, the tax break averages out to $58,000 each year, which is more than the income of 90% of the people in this country. Of course this does not include the loopholes also available to them.
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Well that old saying "THE RICH GET RICHER " didn't just start in this decade.

The gap between the working class and the rich has always been substancial,but people had jobs
The only differance is this gap has gotten too wide without jobs the gap becomes a division.

Frankly I don't give a damn about the rich getting or not getting tax breaks.
The rich got breaks before, the working class just shrugged their shoulders and went back to work, to paying taxes and making a living , maybe a little grumbling , but now there is a lot less jobs a lot less people working while prices inch up wages stay the same., and while a government struggles with 2 wars, a recession knocking on the door, and a lot less tax revenue add a few trilloin in debt and a lot less jobs to create tax revenue YOU GOT ONE BIG MESS.:peace
 
presluc said:
Well that old saying "THE RICH GET RICHER " didn't just start in this decade.
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You are correct old friend, it started with Ronald Reagan 3 decades ago. With the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, it just got worse.

The gap between the working class and the rich has always been substancial,but people had jobs
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We have never seen the disparity between the classes that we have today in our lifetimes. It has not been this great since before the Great Depression.

The only differance is this gap has gotten too wide without jobs the gap becomes a division.
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True that!

Frankly I don't give a damn about the rich getting or not getting tax breaks. The rich got breaks before, the working class just shrugged their shoulders and went back to work, to paying taxes and making a living , maybe a little grumbling , but now there is a lot less jobs a lot less people working while prices inch up wages stay the same., and while a government struggles with 2 wars, a recession knocking on the door, and a lot less tax revenue add a few trilloin in debt and a lot less jobs to create tax revenue YOU GOT ONE BIG MESS.:peace
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I wouldn't care either if it had not affected our economy and debt and requires the middle class take on more of the nations debt, and cuts to senior's benefits. :peace
 
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