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What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

TurtleDude said:
sure you do

I believe that I really do. the average associate at a decent size law firm puts in more hours in a week than many of you union types do in two or three. and they don't get "overtime" for it

Unions-less work for more pay. a great system until competition raises up its global head and smacks overpriced American unionistas right in the face
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keep running your mouth, your just proving how ignorant you are about unions, and how little you know about them.
 
haymarket said:
Sadly Turtle, there is a handicap in both. America is a great nation for many reasons - one of which is America is the land of opportunity where persons can make all they can of themselves and achieve their potential. Not only does this enrich the individual and their family, but it has wider ripples than enrich the society. When one is dependent on the government - or as you colorfully like to put it - suckling on the public teat - that serves as a brake on individual development and serves to limit undeveloped potential which is a handicap both to the individual and the larger society. The same can be said for those who are born on third base and like to think they have hit a home run in life as they cross the plate. Regardless on what is being suckled - they are suckling just the same. I have said this before regarding this topic - I greatly respect the self made man or woman who rises from average or humble origins and achieves great things. It does not mean I agree with their politics or all their economic decisions to achieve their fortune - but I can respect their struggle and their rise to success.

Sadly, I cannot say the same for those who inherit wealth and merely capitalize upon it, family connections and the network of the wealthy that is open to them and closed to most others. I realize that there are people who inherited wealth and also achieved in their own right. However, we will never ever know if they would have achieved had they been born into a humble or impoverished family and had been denied the advantages that they took as normal and due to them.
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I find your constant worrying about others inheriting wealth to be rather interesting and disturbing at the same time. It reminds me of Aesop's fable about the fox who lost his beautiful tail and then tried to convince those who still had them to cut their's off.
 
randel said:
keep running your mouth, your just proving how ignorant you are about unions, and how little you know about them.
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One huge part of anti-union sentiments as voiced in America and on this message board is simply part of being in the Jets or the Sharks. Those who are not in the union movement and whose jobs in fact benefits from a weakened or nonexistent union movement, adopt beliefs that simply are in their own self interest. It is not so much about ideology or philosophy - although they can be constructed as a rationalization for anti-unionism - as it is simply that if you are Puerto Rican you are a Shark and if you are White your lot has been cast with the Jets . And like the song says...
"when you're a jet your a Jet all the way from your first cigarette to you're last dying day."
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For many here, it is just that simple. All the faux right wing ideology that is used to justify anti-unionism is just so much lipstick on the pig.
 
randel said:
keep running your mouth, your just proving how ignorant you are about unions, and how little you know about them.
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Poor Randel, I know as much or more about Unions than you do. I have a degree in that issue. and while unions once provided a proper counterbalance to predatory management, unions are nothing more than a drain on society these days-a drain that is becoming extinct with more and more globalization. No wonder the unions are fighting so hard to keep the taxpayer robbing public sector unions in place-the public sector is about the only area where competition cannot create the proper wage environment.
 
TurtleDude said:
I find your constant worrying about others inheriting wealth to be rather interesting and disturbing at the same time. It reminds me of Aesop's fable about the fox who lost his beautiful tail and then tried to convince those who still had them to cut their's off.
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But I have never lost anything and still have my beautiful tail.

One cannot help but notice you ignore the substance of my argument in favor of a clever drive-by line.
 
TurtleDude said:
Poor Randel, I know as much or more about Unions than you do. I have a degree in that issue. and while unions once provided a proper counterbalance to predatory management, unions are nothing more than a drain on society these days-a drain that is becoming extinct with more and more globalization. No wonder the unions are fighting so hard to keep the taxpayer robbing public sector unions in place-the public sector is about the only area where competition cannot create the proper wage environment.
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you may just want to be quiet now, your ignorance on the topic is showing
 
TurtleDude said:
when I post stuff that is of equal factual merit you avoid it. debating by proxy is lame. why don't you tell us in your own words why proof of the middle class disappearing is proven by say the amount of debt "keeping up with the Joneses" middle class families have accumulated?
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This is simple...the middleclass is disappearing because the Rich corporate pigs at the trough took most of the MIDDLECLASS paying jobs out of the country so they could have mOAR...had nothing to do with taxs or regulations its all about greed.
The jobs that are left have no pensions no benefits, stagnant pay and less hours so again the pigs at the trough can have mOAR. Theres going to come a time when theres no middleclass to buy the pigs goods and to support their greed and that will be the day they eat themselves...
 
TurtleDude said:
the parasitic unionista left constantly claims that when they don't pay near the taxes I do.

when half of your next dollar is taken by state and federal governments that is "heavily taxed"

when a group that earns 22% of the income yet pays 40% of the income tax and the surcharge known as the death or estate tax, they are HEAVILY TAXED compared to those 47% who pay NO income and no estate tax


when you start paying as much tax dollars as I do you might have some standing to make such idiotic pronouncements. Until then, you are talking out of your six
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You're either lying or a trust fund brat idiot. No one as clueless (and nearly illiterate) as you could have possibly amassed a fortune on their own... legally.

I've chased you off several threads now with the facts you seem to not be able to swallow or refute and so jump to a new thread to scream and whine your favorite Limbaugh inspired whine about parasites, leaches and etc.

Does this sound familiar? No taxation without representation. Since the wealthy have a disproportionate access to Our representation, they should continue to have the same disproportionate tax burden.

And for the thousandth time...
When productivity rises annually (thank you workers)
When profits rise 104% on that productivity (thank you workers)
When cost of living rises...
When executive pay rises 400%

And worker pay FALLS 4%, the only tit being sucked on is the worker's.
 
randel said:
you may just want to be quiet now, your ignorance on the topic is showing
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lets play who knows more about the labor movement and labor law.
 
Occam's Razor said:
You're either lying or a trust fund brat idiot. No one as clueless (and nearly illiterate) as you could have possibly amassed a fortune on their own... legally.

I've chased you off several threads now with the facts you seem to not be able to swallow or refute and so jump to a new thread to scream and whine your favorite Limbaugh inspired whine about parasites, leaches and etc.

Does this sound familiar? No taxation without representation. Since the wealthy have a disproportionate access to Our representation, they should continue to have the same disproportionate tax burden.

And for the thousandth time...
When productivity rises annually (thank you workers)
When profits rise 104% on that productivity (thank you workers)
When cost of living rises...
When executive pay rises 400%

And worker pay FALLS 4%, the only tit being sucked on is the worker's.
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envy is not a proper grounds for economic policies. a wage is nothing more than a company buying a commodity known as labor. If a company's profits double does that mean it should pay twice as much for energy or steel than the going rate? You have never chased me off of anything. I don't even listen to limbaugh but your rantings certainly show me who is successful in life

Lets play who is more educated. want a shot at the title?
 
TD do you care if an oligarchy forms? Do you understand that if we keep on the track we are on right now an oligarchy will rule, even if they dont rule already.. Are you ok with this?
 
TurtleDude said:
explain to me why I should have to work X hours a week to pay for your health care in addition to paying for mine?

It is certainly not my fault or my doing if you are not skilled enough to gain sufficient compensation to pay for your own needs
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..ah, but it is your obligation:

Luke 12:48
New International Version (©1984)
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

If you are a poor steward of your blessings, they should be taken away.
 
TurtleDude said:
lets play who knows more about the labor movement and labor law.
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Turtle - one can acquire basic knowledge about baseball without having ever played the game. One can have played the game on some level without ever having achieved anything in it. One can even achieve in the game without ever developing a true love for the game. And one can even love the game without truly understanding all its subtleties and nuances that escape so many.

Unless you have been a member of a labor union and know the first hand importance of being in a union, all the textbook information about unions is simply not enough to gain any true appreciation for unions and what it means to be a member. It is akin to a dried up old spinster in her eighties with a room full of well read romance novels but has never been in love herself.

Upsideguy - thanks for that great quote --- it comes at a perfect time in this discussion. :peace
 
TheDemSocialist said:
TD do you care if an oligarchy forms? Do you understand that if we keep on the track we are on right now an oligarchy will rule, even if they dont rule already.. Are you ok with this?
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I always find it interesting that those who want the rich to be taxed more so as to "decentralize wealth" in private hands are the same ones who want more and more centralized government
 
TurtleDude said:
I always find it interesting that those who want the rich to be taxed more so as to "decentralize wealth" in private hands are the same ones who want more and more centralized government
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there may be some truth to that today but it was not always so. In the labor movement of the Gilded Age, there was a very strong anti-government sentiment which even was as far as supporting anarchy because the government was on the side of the rich and wealthy and used its powers to subvert labor and the movement.

It is only with the changes of the 20th century that government no longer is the target of unionist ire and anger the way it was during the days of the 1870's and 80's and 90's.

Many today - and that would include myself - see a strong government as a necessary bulwark against corporatism and the abuses of wealth.
 
haymarket said:
Turtle - one can acquire basic knowledge about baseball without having ever played the game. One can have played the game on some level without ever having achieved anything in it. One can even achieve in the game without ever developing a true love for the game. And one can even love the game without truly understanding all its subtleties and nuances that escape so many.

Unless you have been a member of a labor union and know the first hand importance of being in a union, all the textbook information about unions is simply not enough to gain any true appreciation for unions and what it means to be a member. It is akin to a dried up old spinster in her eighties with a room full of well read romance novels but has never been in love herself.

Upsideguy - thanks for that great quote --- it comes at a perfect time in this discussion. :peace
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that is bs. you may well know how YOUR UNION works better than I do but you certainly cannot claim that being a member of the union (meaning you buy into the merits of the union) somehow makes you more knowledgeable on a union's impact on the economic environment or its place in the labor market.

In fact I would note that you are more likely to buy into the propaganda and less likely to be able to see objective reality
 
upsideguy said:
..ah, but it is your obligation:

Luke 12:48
New International Version (©1984)
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

If you are a poor steward of your blessings, they should be taken away.
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quoting myths to me is pretty lame


and I protect what i have rather zealously. and you confuse being asked with being coerced.

trying to justify parasitic infections with the bible is just plain wrong
 
haymarket said:
there may be some truth to that today but it was not always so. In the labor movement of the Gilded Age, there was a very strong anti-government sentiment which even was as far as supporting anarchy because the government was on the side of the rich and wealthy and used its powers to subvert labor and the movement.

It is only with the changes of the 20th century that government no longer is the target of unionist ire and anger the way it was during the days of the 1870's and 80's and 90's.

Many today - and that would include myself - see a strong government as a necessary bulwark against corporatism and the abuses of wealth.
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and many of us see strong corporations and state governments as a bulwark against socialism and abuses of a centralized government
 
TurtleDude said:
I always find it interesting that those who want the rich to be taxed more so as to "decentralize wealth" in private hands are the same ones who want more and more centralized government
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You failed to answer the question again.... Answer the question...
But i want a "more centralized government" because i want the rich to be taxed more?
But please answer the question tutrle... Are you ok with an oligarchy, if not we are already in one? Answer the question.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
You failed to answer the question again.... Answer the question...
But i want a "more centralized government" because i want the rich to be taxed more?
But please answer the question tutrle... Are you ok with an oligarchy, if not we are already in one? Answer the question.
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Its a false choice
 
EarlzP said:
Using logic give me one reason that business would want to create jobs here in america, the repubs can use lower corporate tax rates but that is nothing more then the same dog and pony show BS we have seen with the Bush tax cuts, employment as we knew it is gone from America, big business has no incentive to re-invest in America when they can build in China and other countries where labor costs are 1/10th what they pay here

The only job growth we could see in America are jobs created by the government and we know that the republicans will fight that all the way to 2012, If you want America to survive vote out all of the republicans and demand that the government puts high enough import taxes on foreign made goods to create a competitive environment for American workers
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Very well lets use logic.

American corporations live and operate under a capitalist society that is fact.
The target consumer of American products sales is the American people.
Sure American business can build in China under China's rule.
China is a socialist country everything made by workers goes to the state.
If you are a Chinese worker and you know you work for the state are you going to buy Chinese products or American products?

I was a hard core Democrat but now I am independent.
As long as the blame game and partisan politics can survive nobody will prosper.

Not America, not American workers , and eventualy not American corporations.
This trend really started in 2003, and it's only gotten worce.
Where is Real estate , manufacturing, electronics, garment inds today?
Where is unemployment, food stamps, credit cards, foreclosures,money circulation?
Where is the economy, product sales and tax revenue today?

In my humble opinion the left could become a little bit right ,and the right could become a little bit left and maybe somewhere in the middle is an answer to how to fix this country.

Any politician left or right should put his country before his party.

I say screw the rightwingers and the leftwingers the independent party nominee is who I'm voting for , until this blame game and pointing fingures **** is over between the Republicans and Democrats and they go to work.:peace
 
TurtleDude said:
lets play who knows more about the labor movement and labor law.
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Oh can I take a wild guess at the answer?

Lets see, who knows more about the labor movement and the labor law.

Don't tell me, could it be laborers or workers know the most about the labor movement and labor law, for if you take out the laborers , WELL?

Labor day look up to see how it got started?:peace
 
presluc said:
Oh can I take a wild guess at the answer?

Lets see, who knows more about the labor movement and the labor law.

Don't tell me, could it be laborers or workers know the most about the labor movement and labor law, for if you take out the laborers , WELL?

Labor day look up to see how it got started?:peace
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that is confused and rambling--normally you are more lucid

care for a 'do over'?
 
TurtleDude said:
envy is not a proper grounds for economic policies. a wage is nothing more than a company buying a commodity known as labor. If a company's profits double does that mean it should pay twice as much for energy or steel than the going rate? You have never chased me off of anything. I don't even listen to limbaugh but your rantings certainly show me who is successful in life

Lets play who is more educated. want a shot at the title?
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Careful Turtle education cuts a wide slice.

You may be educated in one area but another you would not last an hour.:peace
 
presluc said:
Careful Turtle education cuts a wide slice.

You may be educated in one area but another you would not last an hour.:peace
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true, I don't know anything about broadway musicals, HVAC repair, tap dancing, or servicing hard drives.

Labor law and labor history, have a masters in that
 
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