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Thread: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    If you are going to call me Stupid you ought to learn how to spell BURDEN

    You are unable to fathom the fact that the rich bear more of the income tax burden now than at any time in the last several decades.
    And you fail to "fathom" that it's because they are earning more (or keeping more for themselves) than ever before, and the working class has seen no rise in income in nearly a decade.

    If you cut the tax rate in half, and they are paying more than they ever have... it doesn't take a degree from MIT to understand why.

    Cutting taxes more for the wealthy will not change this and raising taxes on those that will not be able to feed their families or the fuel to drive to the only descent jobs available will not change that either.

    If you want the tax burden to be more equal, earnings for EVERYONE must rise with rises in productivity (which we have) and rises in profits (which we have). The rise in productivity is almost exclusively the domain of the worker, any profits based on that should be passed to those responsible for it, period, not co-opted by those that control the flow of finances. High marginal tax rates on the wealthiest discourage this behavior. When taxes are in the 70%-90% range, directors and owners are less likely to steal 400% more on 104% rise in profits and instead return more of that to the worker rather than be taxed on it.

    The first part of the problem is that our current code only has six brackets. And the top bracket tops out at about $375k. Meaning someone that in today's economy is just doing pretty well is paying the same rate as the top one tenth of one percent, the 400 wealthiest holding 85% of the wealth. There should be 12-16 tax brackets.

    Current
    Head of Household
    Marginal Tax Rate...............Tax Brackets
    10.0%............................. $0 $11,95
    15.0% ............................. $11,950 $45,55
    25.0%............................. $45,550 $117,65
    28.0%............................. $117,650 $190,55
    33.0%............................. $190,550 $373,65
    35.0%............................. $373,650 and up

    I'm sorry, but in a society that has people making tens of millions annually and tax brackets that lump the new middle class (bottom of the top tier) in with the wealthiest, that is gross incompetence. The real reason for this is to play to the far more numerous bottom of the top tier to support massive tax breaks for the top of the top tier.

    The lower tiers have already seen their taxes double since 1964 while the wealthiest saw them halved... now you want more? Please.

    What the tax brackets should look like..

    6.0%............................... $0 $11,95
    8.0% .............................. $11,950 $45,550
    12.0%............................. $45,550 $117,650
    15.0%............................. $117,650 $190,550
    18.0%............................. $190,550 $373,650
    30.0%............................. $373,650 $500,000
    35.0%............................. $500,001 $750,000
    40.0%............................. $750,001 $2,000,000
    45.0%............................. $2,000,001 5,000,000
    50.0%............................. $5,000,001 10,000,000
    60.0%............................. $10,000,001 $20,000,000
    70.0%............................. $20,000,001 $40,000,000
    90.0%............................. $40,000,001 and up

    I agree, the problem is the marginal taxes... but not the rates, the brackets.

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    why should anyone have 90% of their next tax dollar taken by the government

    You need to pay that rate if you want someone else to

    Progressive income taxes encourage people like you to vote for politicians who promise you that only the rich will pay more taxes

    no person should pay more than a quarter of their income in total taxes.



  3. #953
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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why should anyone have 90% of their next tax dollar taken by the government

    You need to pay that rate if you want someone else to

    Progressive income taxes encourage people like you to vote for politicians who promise you that only the rich will pay more taxes

    no person should pay more than a quarter of their income in total taxes.
    When the wealthy who control the economy stop bringing it to the brink of disaster with no consequences to them, then I'll shed a tear for them. When we get ourselves out of debt and the majority of the people are employed with a living wage then we can talk about tax rates and what's fair.

    Tyranny does not confine itself to government, it more often arises from private interests. Just as the constitution tries to protect us from our gov't, our gov't was to protect us against the corporate privateers that seek to accumulate wealth and power into the hands of a few at the expense of the many. Precisely because corporations are soulless, amoral entities, they require (as the founders said) tight regulation to keep them from monopolizing the wealth of the country.

    This is a no brainer... if 400 people have 85% of the wealth locked up, commerce ceases to be possible. You do realize we are trying to run the world's largest economy on 15% of available wealth... right? It's not freakin possible. That money MUST be put back into the economy, and if they won't do it voluntarily, as a last resort, We the People sure as hell will tax it out of them. Why? Because YOU CAN"T RUN THE WORLD'S LARGEST ECONOMY ON 15% OF IT"S WEALTH!

    It's simple number mechanics. However much that sucks, the super wealthy are not being deprived of anything. Doubling taxes on the remaining 15% is literally taking food off the table which sucks so much more... for so many more.

    Get a soul TD... seriously!

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    When the wealthy who control the economy stop bringing it to the brink of disaster with no consequences to them, then I'll shed a tear for them.
    Like what? Banking? The banking crisis started with government.

    When we get ourselves out of debt and the majority of the people are employed with a living wage then we can talk about tax rates and what's fair.

    What in the **** are you talking about? A living wage like I have said before is economically unsound. Its a liberal pipe dream, like the minimum wage was. They both assume far to much about the market without actually looking into those assumptions when going in.

    Well.. I guess I shouldn't say minimum wage went in without taking them into account. It damn well knew it would discriminate against low skill workers and it knew it would do nothing to raise quality of life. But all the same, the people that believe in what is it is sold as today believe in a pipe dream that never was and never will be.

    And I have no idea why its the responsibly of the rich to pay for the debt.

    Tyranny does not confine itself to government, it more often arises from private interests. Just as the constitution tries to protect us from our gov't, our gov't was to protect us against the corporate privateers that seek to accumulate wealth and power into the hands of a few at the expense of the many. Precisely because corporations are soulless, amoral entities, they require (as the founders said) tight regulation to keep them from monopolizing the wealth of the country.
    Corporations are the product of govt. Try your rant again after you figure that out.

    This is a no brainer... if 400 people have 85% of the wealth locked up, commerce ceases to be possible. You do realize we are trying to run the world's largest economy on 15% of available wealth... right? It's not freakin possible. That money MUST be put back into the economy, and if they won't do it voluntarily, as a last resort, We the People sure as hell will tax it out of them. Why? Because YOU CAN"T RUN THE WORLD'S LARGEST ECONOMY ON 15% OF IT"S WEALTH!
    Taxing wealth is not the way to get wealth back in your hands. First..

    "Corporations are the product of govt. "

    Second, it called the market. Use it.

    It's simple number mechanics. However much that sucks, the super wealthy are not being deprived of anything. Doubling taxes on the remaining 15% is literally taking food off the table which sucks so much more... for so many more.
    You do realize that is utter stupidity I hope. Even with the government helping in the creation of corporations what you get in your life is in your control.

    Get a soul TD... seriously!
    Get a clue...seriously.

    And your emotional arguments mean nothing. Use economic arguments please.
    Last edited by Henrin; 09-08-11 at 12:48 AM.

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    And you fail to "fathom" that it's because they are earning more (or keeping more for themselves) than ever before, and the working class has seen no rise in income in nearly a decade.

    If you cut the tax rate in half, and they are paying more than they ever have... it doesn't take a degree from MIT to understand why.

    Cutting taxes more for the wealthy will not change this and raising taxes on those that will not be able to feed their families or the fuel to drive to the only descent jobs available will not change that either.

    If you want the tax burden to be more equal, earnings for EVERYONE must rise with rises in productivity (which we have) and rises in profits (which we have). The rise in productivity is almost exclusively the domain of the worker, any profits based on that should be passed to those responsible for it, period, not co-opted by those that control the flow of finances. High marginal tax rates on the wealthiest discourage this behavior. When taxes are in the 70%-90% range, directors and owners are less likely to steal 400% more on 104% rise in profits and instead return more of that to the worker rather than be taxed on it.

    The first part of the problem is that our current code only has six brackets. And the top bracket tops out at about $375k. Meaning someone that in today's economy is just doing pretty well is paying the same rate as the top one tenth of one percent, the 400 wealthiest holding 85% of the wealth. There should be 12-16 tax brackets.

    Current
    Head of Household
    Marginal Tax Rate...............Tax Brackets
    10.0%............................. $0 $11,95
    15.0% ............................. $11,950 $45,55
    25.0%............................. $45,550 $117,65
    28.0%............................. $117,650 $190,55
    33.0%............................. $190,550 $373,65
    35.0%............................. $373,650 and up

    I'm sorry, but in a society that has people making tens of millions annually and tax brackets that lump the new middle class (bottom of the top tier) in with the wealthiest, that is gross incompetence. The real reason for this is to play to the far more numerous bottom of the top tier to support massive tax breaks for the top of the top tier.

    The lower tiers have already seen their taxes double since 1964 while the wealthiest saw them halved... now you want more? Please.

    What the tax brackets should look like..

    6.0%............................... $0 $11,95
    8.0% .............................. $11,950 $45,550
    12.0%............................. $45,550 $117,650
    15.0%............................. $117,650 $190,550
    18.0%............................. $190,550 $373,650
    30.0%............................. $373,650 $500,000
    35.0%............................. $500,001 $750,000
    40.0%............................. $750,001 $2,000,000
    45.0%............................. $2,000,001 5,000,000
    50.0%............................. $5,000,001 10,000,000
    60.0%............................. $10,000,001 $20,000,000
    70.0%............................. $20,000,001 $40,000,000
    90.0%............................. $40,000,001 and up

    I agree, the problem is the marginal taxes... but not the rates, the brackets.

    Excellent! A well reasoned post backed up with facts!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why should anyone have 90% of their next tax dollar taken by the government

    You need to pay that rate if you want someone else to

    Progressive income taxes encourage people like you to vote for politicians who promise you that only the rich will pay more taxes

    no person should pay more than a quarter of their income in total taxes.
    *Yawn* More opinion and no facts....


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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why should anyone have 90% of their next tax dollar taken by the government

    You need to pay that rate if you want someone else to

    Progressive income taxes encourage people like you to vote for politicians who promise you that only the rich will pay more taxes

    no person should pay more than a quarter of their income in total taxes.
    When you tax something you get less of it. Right?

    So if overconcentration of wealth is an issue tax it until doing so becomes unattractive.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    And you fail to "fathom" that it's because they are earning more (or keeping more for themselves) than ever before, and the working class has seen no rise in income in nearly a decade.

    If you cut the tax rate in half, and they are paying more than they ever have... it doesn't take a degree from MIT to understand why.

    Cutting taxes more for the wealthy will not change this and raising taxes on those that will not be able to feed their families or the fuel to drive to the only descent jobs available will not change that either.

    If you want the tax burden to be more equal, earnings for EVERYONE must rise with rises in productivity (which we have) and rises in profits (which we have). The rise in productivity is almost exclusively the domain of the worker, any profits based on that should be passed to those responsible for it, period, not co-opted by those that control the flow of finances. High marginal tax rates on the wealthiest discourage this behavior. When taxes are in the 70%-90% range, directors and owners are less likely to steal 400% more on 104% rise in profits and instead return more of that to the worker rather than be taxed on it.

    The first part of the problem is that our current code only has six brackets. And the top bracket tops out at about $375k. Meaning someone that in today's economy is just doing pretty well is paying the same rate as the top one tenth of one percent, the 400 wealthiest holding 85% of the wealth. There should be 12-16 tax brackets.

    Current
    Head of Household
    Marginal Tax Rate...............Tax Brackets
    10.0%............................. $0 $11,95
    15.0% ............................. $11,950 $45,55
    25.0%............................. $45,550 $117,65
    28.0%............................. $117,650 $190,55
    33.0%............................. $190,550 $373,65
    35.0%............................. $373,650 and up

    I'm sorry, but in a society that has people making tens of millions annually and tax brackets that lump the new middle class (bottom of the top tier) in with the wealthiest, that is gross incompetence. The real reason for this is to play to the far more numerous bottom of the top tier to support massive tax breaks for the top of the top tier.

    The lower tiers have already seen their taxes double since 1964 while the wealthiest saw them halved... now you want more? Please.

    What the tax brackets should look like..

    6.0%............................... $0 $11,95
    8.0% .............................. $11,950 $45,550
    12.0%............................. $45,550 $117,650
    15.0%............................. $117,650 $190,550
    18.0%............................. $190,550 $373,650
    30.0%............................. $373,650 $500,000
    35.0%............................. $500,001 $750,000
    40.0%............................. $750,001 $2,000,000
    45.0%............................. $2,000,001 5,000,000
    50.0%............................. $5,000,001 10,000,000
    60.0%............................. $10,000,001 $20,000,000
    70.0%............................. $20,000,001 $40,000,000
    90.0%............................. $40,000,001 and up

    I agree, the problem is the marginal taxes... but not the rates, the brackets.
    I KNEW it. If some people had their way, there would be no end to the tax burden, all the way up to 90% of someone's income. A lot of people (ok, on the left) deny that they want taxation to get up into the 70-90% range, which doesn't really follow. If someone believes higher taxes are the right answer, then it makes sense that that person would believe that the more taxation the better ~ which is pretty much exactly what this post argues.
    Last edited by X Factor; 09-08-11 at 02:00 AM.
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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    When you tax something you get less of it. Right?

    So if overconcentration of wealth is an issue tax it until doing so becomes unattractive.
    Usually when you see a problem fixing it involves facing the causes of the problem. Taxes does not reach that end. It just punishes people to punish people.

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I KNEW it. If some people had their way, there would be no end to the tax burden, all the way up to 90% of someone's income. A lot of people (ok, on the left) deny that they want taxation to get up into the 70-90% range, which doesn't really follow. If someone believes higher taxes are the right answer, then it makes sense that that person would believe that the more taxation the better ~ which is pretty much exactly what this post argues.
    That is all it ever is. They hide behind this wealth disparity argument but they aren't interested in looking at causes but only the wealth itself. Its becomes pretty apparent that the entire argument is not serious.
    Last edited by Henrin; 09-08-11 at 02:11 AM.

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