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Thread: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    how disengenuous. the middle class are far less likely to have capital gains. we cannot just continue to concentrate wealth at the expesne of the middle class.
    you libs often confuse and mix up arguments

    the tax rates on LTCG are not validly attacked by whining about which groups of tax payers may have LTCG income



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    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you libs often confuse and mix up arguments

    the tax rates on LTCG are not validly attacked by whining about which groups of tax payers may have LTCG income
    Turtledude- do you believe rich people have and do take advantage of the ability to manipulate laws and lawmakers more so than someone with less money? Do you think this power is abused? Do you think it's fair?

    I think so (as in it's abused, unfair), and I think that's why liberals are upset (and so should be conservatives) because it hampers the ability of the free market to function properly.
    Last edited by David D.; 08-24-11 at 01:06 PM.

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    Turtledude- do you believe rich people have and do take advantage of the ability to manipulate laws and lawmakers more so than someone with less money? Do you think this power is abused? Do you think it's fair? I think so, and I think that's why liberals are upset (and so should be conservatives) because it hampers the ability of the free market to function properly.
    1) you have to define the rich. as far as the tax scheme goes that means everyone making more than 200K and Very few in that group have the ability to manipulate laws so imposing tax hikes on that group is as unfair as cutting off all welfare because a larger percentage of those on welfare manipulate the system than the number of the rich who can manipulate laws2) many of the uber rich derive poltical power as well as insulate their lofty positions by pushing for higher taxes so there is no monolithic agreement among the very rich3) given the fact that the left is as well represented among the uber rich as the right your argument has no real merit. and I would note if the rich had monolithic position combined with the power you claim, the rich would not be paying almost twice as much of the income tax burden as their share of the income.



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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    how disengenuous. the middle class are far less likely to have capital gains. we cannot just continue to concentrate wealth at the expesne of the middle class.
    It is far from disengenuous. The truth is not disengenuous. I am middle class and I have paid capital gains taxes. I would think that more middle class people pay capital gains than those who earn $250,000 or more. In fact, it appears that I am correct. Here is a link to site that backs me up.

    "Fewer than one in seven individual income taxpayers reported taxable capital gains in 2006. Over half of taxpayers with gains had incomes below $75,000,..."

    Who Pays Capital Gains Tax?

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    as far as the tax scheme goes that means everyone making more than 200K and Very few in that group have the ability to manipulate laws so imposing tax hikes on that group is as unfair as cutting off all welfare because a larger percentage of those on welfare manipulate the system than the number of the rich who can manipulate laws
    True, TurtleDude, and let me say that my frustration is towards the 'uber-rich' group, specifically. I think a system is broken when maybe 0.1% have a much more disproportionate say as to how the laws are created than the remaining 99.9%, it creates market conditions which are unfair for what the majority of people may want. The 0.1% should have a 0.1% say on how laws are formed. That's democracy.


    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    many of the uber rich derive poltical power as well as insulate their lofty positions by pushing for higher taxes so there is no monolithic agreement among the very rich3) given the fact that the left is as well represented among the uber rich as the right your argument has no real merit
    I never mentioned that taxes were the problem - higher taxes, lower taxes, whatever it's just a political thing mostly. Taxes aren't causing the wealth stratification.

    Also mentioned that both the left and right should be equally angry so I'm not sure how the 'fact that the left is as well represented' derails my argument. It's no secret that Obama gave $700 freaking billion dollars of our hard made cash to people who seemed not to care about anything else than making money through fraud and corruption. Garbage mortgage securities given "AAA" ratings? Give me a break. We need more accountability, not more regulation.


    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and I would note if the rich had monolithic position combined with the power you claim, the rich would not be paying almost twice as much of the income tax burden as their share of the income
    I don't believe in conspiracy theories, and I don't think that the rich have this huge, unified 'new world agenda'. However, you can't deny that the rich will work together (ie in smaller groups, like by sector) for the common goal of more profit, which will at times sacrifice the well being of many to comfort the few, and they can do this simply because they have more money. In America, money = power when it comes to shaping laws, and what that does is tip the boat in the direction of people with wealth.
    Last edited by David D.; 08-24-11 at 01:47 PM.

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    True, TurtleDude, and let me say that my frustration is towards the 'uber-rich' group, specifically. I think a system is broken when maybe 0.1% have a much more disproportionate say as to how the laws are created than the remaining 99.9%, it creates market conditions which are unfair for what the majority of people may want. The 0.1% should have a 0.1% say on how laws are formed. That's democracy.
    Hmmm. You are frustrated with people who build computers in their garage and turn it into untold wealth? And, you are frustrated with people who know how to write programs for computers and end up with computerized social networking sites and make untold fortunes? And, you are frustrated with people who had a college thesis to provide overnight air service for packages and became wealthy? Could you please provide some examples of where Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, or Fred Smith created a law.

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Hmmm. You are frustrated with people who build computers in their garage and turn it into untold wealth? And, you are frustrated with people who know how to write programs for computers and end up with computerized social networking sites and make untold fortunes? And, you are frustrated with people who had a college thesis to provide overnight air service for packages and became wealthy? Could you please provide some examples of where Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, or Fred Smith created a law.
    Sure Les, I was being a bit too general, I admit. I don't have contempt for people who are rich (because many of those people, as you point out, have contributed wonderful things to society and deserve every bit of wealth they have) and I admit that perhaps I should have worded my argument differently.

    To restate my point, let me start with (one) definition of democracy:
    "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives"

    I am frustrated by the fact that if you happen to have a boat-load of wealth and money, you have the ability to have a much more powerful say as to how laws are shaped. It's not the people we need to be mad at, it's the system. "Money" should not equal "a louder voice" in Washington. I don't have the answers on how to change this, perhaps we can start however by eliminating Super-PACs, limiting campaign funding, and encouraging new avenues that people can learn about and/or nominate candidates besides the national mainstream media. I think total transparency as to who's giving money to who is a good start.
    Last edited by David D.; 08-24-11 at 03:33 PM.

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    Turtledude- do you believe rich people have and do take advantage of the ability to manipulate laws and lawmakers more so than someone with less money? Do you think this power is abused? Do you think it's fair?

    I think so (as in it's abused, unfair), and I think that's why liberals are upset (and so should be conservatives) because it hampers the ability of the free market to function properly.
    Thats why the whining that the Poor and Middleclass that are powerless abuse the rich is just garbage, the rich manipulate EVERYTHING from the economy to politics, some whine the rich pay to much taxs...thats because the rich have to much of the WEALTH, which they got off the poor and middleclass

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    Sure Les, I was being a bit too general, I admit. I don't have contempt for people who are rich (because many of those people, as you point out, have contributed wonderful things to society and deserve every bit of wealth they have) and I admit that perhaps I should have worded my argument differently.

    To restate my point, let me start with (one) definition of democracy:
    "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives"

    I am frustrated by the fact that if you happen to have a boat-load of wealth and money, you have the ability to have a much more powerful say as to how laws are shaped. It's not the people we need to be mad at, it's the system. "Money" should not equal "a louder voice" in Washington. I don't have the answers on how to change this, perhaps we can start however by eliminating Super-PACs, limiting campaign funding, and encouraging new avenues that people can learn about and/or nominate candidates besides the national mainstream media. I think total transparency as to who's giving money to who is a good start.
    Apparently, we differ over what the United States is. It is not a democracy. We do not have equal say. Look at the populations of California and Wyoming. Each state has two Senators. Which state do you think you would have a better chance of being heard by your Senator?

    You are assuming that wealthy people go around and hand out money to politicians for votes. I don't believe that most politicians vote that way. For example, take whichever side of abortion you want, do you think that someone as rich as Bill Gates could persuade you to vote the opposite of your beliefs. I doubt it. Or, how about the Affordable Health Care Act which was recently passed. Do you believe that the Democrats were bought and paid for because they voted for it? And, were the Republicans bought and paid for because they voted against it? I don't think that was the case. I believe that philosophical differences exist between the GOP and the Dems and that is why bipartisan votes are difficult to come by. If people with money could just walk in a bribe people to vote the way they wanted them to, there would be no gridlock in Washington. George Soros would have the GOP voting as if they were Dems and the Koch Brothers would have Dems voting for GOP items.

    Yes, you were far too general in your initial statement, but I fear that you are far too jaded and cynical about politics and the wealthy.
    Last edited by LesGovt; 08-24-11 at 06:19 PM.

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    Re: What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    how disengenuous. the middle class are far less likely to have capital gains. we cannot just continue to concentrate wealth at the expesne of the middle class.
    You are absolutely correct of course! That is why we only get opinions and insults in response to the facts.

    "Families earning more than $1 million a year saw their federal tax rates drop more sharply than any group in the country as a result of President Bush’s tax cuts, according to a new Congressional study.

    The study, by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, also shows that tax rates for middle-income earners edged up in 2004, the most recent year for which data was available, while rates for people at the very top continued to decline.

    Based on an exhaustive analysis of tax records and census data, the study reinforced the sense that while Mr. Bush’s tax cuts reduced rates for people at every income level, they offered the biggest benefits by far to people at the very top — especially the top 1 percent of income earners."
    Tax Cuts Offer Most for Very Rich, Study Says - New York Times
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