View Poll Results: Do you support the People's Budget?

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  • Yes.

    11 47.83%
  • No.

    11 47.83%
  • Unsure.

    1 4.35%
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Thread: People's Budget.

  1. #31
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    Re: People's Budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    There are some things I would change, but on the whole I think this says what needs to be said. We can't keep fixing our public woes with duct tape, and everyone needs to do their part, not just the lower and middle classes.
    The lower class and most of the middle class don't even pay taxes.


    I would add vocational training to the education list and try to create a centralized job placement system. People want to work, and need to work. We should do whatever we can get them the training they need, and then get them into a job. The system we have now with finding ads and help wanted lists, resumes, and interviews... It's an awful system. We need something much more comprehensive, and much more centralized. We need to get people to the jobs.

    Paid for by the government, no less. Right?

    If a person doesn't have the nads to get out, learn a trade and find a job on their own, no amount of government spending is going to do it for them.

  2. #32
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    Re: People's Budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The lower class and most of the middle class don't even pay taxes.
    yes they do. We've posted those links many times showing your error.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #33
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    Re: People's Budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    yes they do. We've posted those links many times showing your error.
    Lower class persons don't pay any income taxes. Sorry for your fail.

  4. #34
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    Re: People's Budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually, they do serve a purpose. Without them, there's no way that a business could stay alive. Allow me to post the example that I posted for Boo.
    I'm not talking about sole proprietorships here; the way they are taxed is mostly OK with me. Basically, the IRS treats their *net* profit the same way it treats personal income. So you aren't taxed on your gross revenue, just what you make above and beyond your expenses. And if you operate at a loss, you can carry it over to apply it to next year's taxes.

    What I'm referring to are the ITEMIZED deductions...all of those things in the tax code that the government (supposedly) put in there in order to get people to behave a certain way. While I'm not inherently opposed to economic nudges like this, when they're included in the income tax code they rarely have the desired result. For example, the mortgage interest deduction is expensive, serves no purpose, and is counterproductive (i.e. it helps encourage real estate bubbles). Ditto for the deduction on employer-provided health insurance...it's expensive, serves no purpose, and is counterproductive (i.e. it confines people to jobs they hate, reduces worker productivity, and reduces social mobility).

    We should eliminate nearly all of these deductions.

    The first step would be to learn the difference between a deduction and a credit.
    Thanks, I'll get right on that.
    My point is that the entire tax code could be drastically simplified, and the vast majority of these things could be eliminated entirely...exemptions, exclusions, deductions, AND credits. I could write a better tax code in 2 pages in MS Word, than what we currently have.

    It will never cease to amaze me how people, who claim to be so much smarter, more educated and more sophisticated than the rest of us can't understand the purpose of deducting the cost of doing business.
    The cost of doing business as a sole proprietorship or partnership is not really an itemized deduction (it's a separate tax form entirely). Your profit is treated the same as your income would be, if you were working for someone else. As it should be.

    You do realize that you wouldn't have your high-speed 6 figure job, if not for those deductions. Yes?
    Actually I imagine it'd be much easier to get clients if businesses didn't need to waste money on entire accounting departments focusing on rent-seeking behavior, just to comply with tax laws and/or find creative ways to avoid them. That would free up a lot more capital to buy my services.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 08-03-11 at 12:45 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Re: People's Budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Lower class persons don't pay any income taxes. Sorry for your fail.
    And why is that apdst?

    but even in making that allegation you engage in the intellectual dishonesty of moving the goal posts. First it was that lower classes pay no taxes


    The lower class and most of the middle class don't even pay taxes.

    .......... then you shift to income taxes when called out on it by Boo. Please stick to one.
    Last edited by haymarket; 08-03-11 at 12:48 AM.
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  6. #36
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    Re: People's Budget.

    I don't support this. It has some things I agree with but not enough to win my support. It also doesn't seem to do anything about shrinking government, cutting government waste, and reforming social programs and abuse of these programs. Also, I'm not fond of raising taxes above what they currently are.
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  7. #37
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    Re: People's Budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not talking about sole proprietorships here; the way they are taxed is mostly OK with me. Basically, the IRS treats their *net* profit the same way it treats personal income. So you aren't taxed on your gross revenue, just what you make above and beyond your expenses. And if you operate at a loss, you can carry it over to apply it to next year's taxes.

    What I'm referring to are the ITEMIZED deductions...all of those things in the tax code that the government (supposedly) put in there in order to get people to behave a certain way. While I'm not inherently opposed to economic nudges like this, when they're included in the income tax code they rarely have the desired result. For example, the mortgage interest deduction is expensive, serves no purpose, and is counterproductive (i.e. it helps encourage real estate bubbles). Ditto for the deduction on employer-provided health insurance...it's expensive, serves no purpose, and is counterproductive (i.e. it confines people to jobs they hate, reduces worker productivity, and reduces social mobility).

    We should eliminate nearly all of these deductions.
    Dude! How do you think that net profit is arrived at?



    Thanks, I'll get right on that.
    My point is that the entire tax code could be drastically simplified, and the vast majority of these things could be eliminated entirely...exemptions, exclusions, deductions, AND credits. I could write a better tax code in 2 pages in MS Word, than what we currently have.
    I could write a better one with one sentence: you'll pay X% on your net income. End of story.



    The cost of doing business as a sole proprietorship or partnership is not really an itemized deduction (it's a separate tax form entirely). Your profit is treated the same as your income would be, if you were working for someone else. As it should be.
    Well, actually there are some: state and local taxes/fees. I write off my heavy road use tax that I file on form 2290. Yes, I write off my federal tax on my 1040. I write off the mileage I rack up on my personal vehicle. I also rent my personal vehicle to my business and write that off, too. Interest payments. Without those deductions, there's no way I could afford to stay in business.

  8. #38
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    Re: People's Budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And why is that apdst?

    but even in making that allegation you engage in the intellectual dishonesty of moving the goal posts. First it was that lower classes pay no taxes





    .......... then you shift to income taxes when called out on it by Boo. Please stick to one.
    Isn't the whole issue about income taxes? Certainly, you're not saying that rich folks should pay more sales taxes than poor people. Correct?

    I'm quite sure you don't want to get into a dick measuring contest over who pays the most in sales and property taxes: rich vs. poor. I think you would already know that that would be a loser for your side.

  9. #39
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    Re: People's Budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Dude! How do you think that net profit is arrived at?
    Revenue minus expenses. Next.

    I could write a better one with one sentence: you'll pay X% on your net income. End of story.
    So then you agree with me that we don't need itemized deductions? Why are you arguing the point then?

    Well, actually there are some: state and local taxes/fees. I write off my heavy road use tax that I file on form 2290. Yes, I write off my federal tax on my 1040. I write off the mileage I rack up on my personal vehicle. I also rent my personal vehicle to my business and write that off, too. Interest payments. Without those deductions, there's no way I could afford to stay in business.
    If those other taxes are part of your cost of doing business, then they'd be included in your expenses (and therefore your taxable net income would be lowered accordingly). Basically, the IRS just tries to make the self-employed pay the same taxes they'd be paying if they were working elsewhere, which is fair as far as I'm concerned.
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  10. #40
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    Re: People's Budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Lower class persons don't pay any income taxes. Sorry for your fail.
    Not what you said. Allow me to quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    The lower class and most of the middle class don't even pay taxes.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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