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Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

Is communism a blight upon society and Mao Tse-Tung an evil Communist?

  • Only communism is bad

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How was Mao Communist? His government retained a stratified class system where power was centrally located with the few at the top. That alone blows it out of the category of Communist.
 
This is not one of your better posts, Wake.

The point you are missing when it comes to the death toll of communist ideaology is that the ideology itself is not inherently evil, nor are the people, or even it's leaders really. I agree it's a ultimately flawed idea from an economic, political and societal standpoint. But the point is this; radical and revolutionary politics tend to take a hardline stance, no matter where they are. Violence comes from the far right and the far left. The common thread it that it's adherents have crossed the line from tolerance of others views and ideas (at least to the point where they shouldn't be hurt for them), they have crossed the line to intolerance of others ideas; ideas in opposition or that are not sufficiently "revolutionary" enough are to be disposed of, in one way or another.

When radicalism gets to the point of saying, "Our ideas are so right, that it is acceptable to break some eggs to make our omelet", that's when the death toll starts to pile up. That is the danger of any type of radical/revolutionary politics. Look what seems to be happening in Norway right now.

Also, a great movie of the mob mentality of radical communist politics is the Japanese film Red Faction. Check it out.

You raise good points, radicalmoderate. It's just hard for me to see communists and their inevitable actions... and then have no resistance against people who believe in communism. It just seems that people kept dying under communist regimes; I feel I shouldn't be afraid to draw parallels and think, just maybe, that communism itself might be a contributing factor. I am very wary of communists and what seems to inevitably happen whenever they come to power.

How was Mao Communist? His government retained a stratified class system where power was centrally located with the few at the top. That alone blows it out of the category of Communist.

I'm not even going to argue this. You may as well say Stalin wasn't a communist.
 
True. But that doesn't stop communistic people from supporting and arguing for communism. Le Marteu was one example, there's other communistic posters, here.

It only takes a few commies to create more commies. They don't just manifest in large numbers out of thin air. That ideology needs to be further condemned and rebuked.
I suspect a serious sickness here.
Communism is not the problem, never was..
Its ignorance and fear...causing extremeism and hatred.
And all groups are open to this..
 
I suspect a serious sickness here.
Communism is not the problem, never was..
Its ignorance and fear...causing extremeism and hatred.
And all groups are open to this..

If you are implying I'm sick because I study the aftermaths of communist regimes, then I respectfully disagree.
 
You are better off looking at causal relationships than correlations. For example, one could easily argue that democracy was an evil ideology in the 19th century. Nearly every democratic government conquered and exploited some group of people, in addition to genocide, slavery and racism. How would you justify the benefits of democracy to a native American or African in 1825?

There are many flaws of communism, but you need to actually need to specifically identify rather than simply over generalizing.
 
In general terms, communism is flawed and therefore deemed "bad/wrong" because power is centralized, typically, in the hands of one person with a great chain of command. Based on my readings, I know Stalin and Tse-Tung ruthlessly killed their underlings in their paranoia. From my reading of Mao, I know he contributed to the murder of his second wife. Millions died of famine due to his inaction..

But for communism itself, I'll quote my PDF version of the Communist Manifesto later (I can't copy/paste or patch in links, etc). I do know vast power is given to the government in order to make communism work. I know people don't get to own stuff; they merely work to earn their food. Iirc, there's... 10 planks or precepts? I can't recall. Simply put communism seems to drain the individual's ability to own property, run a business, compete/innovate, etc..
 
Totalitarian control emerges in monarchies, democracies, theocracies, and pretty much every other political system that has ever existed. Communism and socialism both call for democracy, by the way. But the point is that no system is immune to corruption and monolithic control. Communism is not more susceptible than any other democracy.


In general terms, communism is flawed and therefore deemed "bad/wrong" because power is centralized, typically, in the hands of one person with a great chain of command. Based on my readings, I know Stalin and Tse-Tung ruthlessly killed their underlings in their paranoia. From my reading of Mao, I know he contributed to the murder of his second wife. Millions died of famine due to his inaction..

But for communism itself, I'll quote my PDF version of the Communist Manifesto later (I can't copy/paste or patch in links, etc). I do know vast power is given to the government in order to make communism work. I know people don't get to own stuff; they merely work to earn their food. Iirc, there's... 10 planks or precepts? I can't recall. Simply put communism seems to drain the individual's ability to own property, run a business, compete/innovate, etc..

Communism requires none of that. It does not necessarily put power in the hands of one person. In fact, to do so is antithetical to socialist ideals. As is "draining the individual's ability to own property, run a business, compete/innovate, etc." Those are the marks of dictators who usurp socialism, not socialists themselves.
 
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First off, communism is impossible. You can't combine anarcy and a classless society.

Socialism have been tried severall times in many different formes, and have been a failure every single time. People who sympathize with socialism, say it is only due to bad leaders. Implying that if socialism had a good leader, it would be good system. That is wrong, the problem is socialism itself.

First off, socialism will not work like socialist want it to work. Socialist leaders tend to get frustrated against it's own people, because they are not acting like they want them to. People are genetically lazy. It is human nature to do the least possible work possible. If there are no incentives to work, then people's effort will be low and people will cheat the system. Socialists analyze a lot, but they don't factor in factors which will work against them.

When asked about incentives, then you will generally get this brief answer.
workers would have strong incentives to be productive in a socialist society because they would be working the social interest,
This shows why socialism fails on incentives, because the only way to make them work is if they support the system and they can change human nature so people are less selfish. In reality they are not able to either and work ethics will be poor.

Secondly, socialism is an inefficient system in itself, especially when combined with democracy. Think about oil and venezuela. Venezuela nationalized their oil production, but production fell. Why? Because people rather want better heath service than investments in oil production. Also, if propery is shared, then people will act as if no one own the property, hence tragedy of the commons. And the best ideas come from the sole entepenour, not the government. Even in a system where people worked hard, would still be an inefficient system.

Thirdly, socialist leaders are horrible leaders, because they are so arrogant. They think they are morally superior other people who don't share their beliefs. I can't mention one socialist leader who haven't oppressed or killed the ones who disagree with him. Is that just bad luck? The problem isn't the leaders, but the socialism itself and the ones who support it.
 
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I'm not even going to argue this. You may as well say Stalin wasn't a communist.

If we define Communist as by what Marx wrote, Stalin was by definition not a Communist either. Totalitarian mass murder crazy nut-job yes, but Communist no.

The problem with how you define Communist is you define Communist as whatever self proclaimed Communists did. There's a big problem with that definition as you just rendered judgment that the United States is Communist.
 
First off, communism is impossible. You can't combine anarcy and a classless society.

At least in Humans.

Socialism have been tried severall times in many different formes, and have been a failure every single time. People who sympathize with socialism, say it is only due to bad leaders. Implying that if socialism had a good leader, it would be good system. That is wrong, the problem is socialism itself.

That depends how you define Socialism. Basically every functioning society is at least partially Socialist, with Socialist services ranging from roads to healthcare. Furthermore, Capitalism requires some level of Socialism to pick up costs that capitalist themselves won't. Think of the road system. If every road was a toll road, we'd have an an exceptionally inefficent system that would slow down the non-IP side of capitalism immensely. By socializing roads, capitalism gains large amounts of efficiencies at relatively low costs.

First off, socialism will not work like socialist want it to work.

That is true.

Secondly, socialism is an inefficient system in itself, especially when combined with democracy. Think about oil and venezuela. Venezuela nationalized their oil production, but production fell. Why? Because people rather want better heath service than investments in oil production. Also, the best ideas come from the sole entepenour, not the government.

Well that depends on how far you take Socialism. There are plenty of grades of Socialism from state backed infrastructure support providing defense to full outright nanny state nationalizing all industries.
 
If we define Communist as by what Marx wrote, Stalin was by definition not a Communist either. Totalitarian mass murder crazy nut-job yes, but Communist no.

The problem with how you define Communist is you define Communist as whatever self proclaimed Communists did. There's a big problem with that definition as you just rendered judgment that the United States is Communist.

You see, that's frustrating. You're saying true communists don't exist.

Whether partial or no, these people all believed and followed communism the best they could. They set the platform and a dictator eventually arose in each scenario.

Have any actual communists ever existed? Has true communism ever existed?

If not, ever, then why persist in the belief of communism? Why not probe into different ideologies?
 
At least in Humans.

That depends how you define Socialism. Basically every functioning society is at least partially Socialist, with Socialist services ranging from roads to healthcare. Furthermore, Capitalism requires some level of Socialism to pick up costs that capitalist themselves won't. Think of the road system. If every road was a toll road, we'd have an an exceptionally inefficent system that would slow down the non-IP side of capitalism immensely. By socializing roads, capitalism gains large amounts of efficiencies at relatively low costs.

That is true.

Well that depends on how far you take Socialism. There are plenty of grades of Socialism from state backed infrastructure support providing defense to full outright nanny state nationalizing all industries.
I follow the oxford dictionary definition. Hence, mixed economies are not socialists. I don't support pure capitalism either. The most important thing in a mixed economy is to care about incentives. In libeterian societies the poor will have no chance against rich kids who attend private schools, so they will get the incentive to either do crime or to quit school and do unqualified work. In socialistic societies people will have the incentive to let other produce while they are being lazy. There is a reason why all developed countries favour mixed economies.

Oxford Dictionary said:
A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
 
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You see, that's frustrating. You're saying true communists don't exist.

Actual Communist countries do not exist. People may be Communists themselves in their beliefs.

Whether partial or no, these people all believed and followed communism the best they could. They set the platform and a dictator eventually arose in each scenario.

But that does not make their countries Communist. And no, they didn't do the best they could have. Absolutely none of the leaders of so called Communist countries ever gave real power to the masses. Every single one of those leaders retained the stratified class system to maintain power. Many of them openly traded with the West. Some never even attempted to get rid of property rights. There was a lot they could have done to nudge closer to Marx. And they failed. Horribly at it. Granted, that's probably good since Communism is bad, but it does not change the fact they are not Communism. Your definition opens a huge can of worms as it defines every nation on the planet at some point Communism.

Have any actual communists ever existed? Has true communism ever existed?

People? Sure. Countries? No. However, I do believe that small Indian groups in the Alps and African Pygmies deep in the jungle have gotten the closest with classless societies, communal ownership and power distributed fairly evenly. In some ways, it could be argued that Communism can work in small communities of relatively primitive people where their simply aren't resources to accumulate any real form of wealth. That's hardly a good way to live though.

If not, ever, then why persist in the belief of communism? Why not probe into different ideologies?

That is a good topic for a PHD dissertation. I don't know why it persists. Maybe because the Cold War is still somewhat relevant? I'm really not sure.
 
Parts of Spain were actually communist for a couple of years. That's the closest anyone's ever gotten.
 
Parts of Spain were actually communist for a couple of years. That's the closest anyone's ever gotten.

True, there have also been examples of semi-communism in many old societies in Africa and South America. However, it is not a type of society that would work in a modern society and it is very inefficient.

All of them have been very poor, and the Spanish one were held together by war and a common cause.
 
I follow the oxford dictionary definition. Hence, mixed economies are not socialists.

Doesn't the fact they are mixed imply they are using socialist policies?

[quoteI don't support pure capitalism either.[/quote]

Only crazies would support pure capitalism.

There is a reason why all developed countries favour mixed economies.

True, but it seems disinegious to attack socialism while embracing economies that rely upon many of its policies.
 
By that same analogy, any democratic leaders who order the bombings of other nations must also be a sign that democracy creates murderers.

Remove the labels and what you're left with are people. They are people that have power with impunity. The ideology is incidental. It's just like how you can't blame the Norwegian massacre on Christianity, but a single man with a radical ideology.

It's unfortunate that you read Mao's work with such tinted glasses.
 
Doesn't the fact they are mixed imply they are using socialist policies?

True, but it seems disinegious to attack socialism while embracing economies that rely upon many of its policies.

Not really. I support many libeterian/pure capitalist policies as well, and I criticize them as well. Just because we agree on some of the same policies doesn't make us the same.

Temporal: Who are you responding to?
 
Not really. I support many libeterian/pure capitalist policies as well, and I criticize them as well. Just because we agree on some of the same policies doesn't make us the same.

I mean it seems odd to attack socialism as a whole but then embrace mixed societies.
 
I mean it seems odd to attack socialism as a whole but then embrace mixed societies.

I think about systems, not policies. Socialism may have some policies that I support, so do libertarian societies, nazist societies, etc. That doesn't make them good systems and I will not say. Nazism is okay if you don't take into account the socialist policies, racism and the genocide.
 
I've been reading a lot of books about communism and Map Tse-Tung, recently. Apparently this communist was a very evil man who killed millions... in peacetime.

Really? A lot of books? Which books? Do you actually read them, or just skim through them?

My question is if communism spawns such violent murderers, consistently, then why is it not condemned? Any wise person understands communism has killed far more people than Naziism ever did.
Dude, you need to get yourself a new hobby. Seriously.

How many times do I need to debunk this bogus, and, more importantly, factually incorrect talking point before you change your tune? Not only have I corrected you on this at least twice, but you have, yourself, personally acknowledged that it is factually wrong. Therefore, it is clear (In case there was any doubt.) that you have absolutely no interest in seriously discussing the subject at hand. this is just another demonstration of partisan hackery designed to instigate a flame war, and, I expect, satisfy some deep-seated need or compulsion stemming from some unspecified, traumatic childhood incident.

Furthermore, I don't subscribe to the lie that "communism never existed", that lie will not be tolerated. Because of this ideology, millions upon millions have died; but come now, communists weren't believers in communism---obviously they only thought they believed in communism.

The problem here is that you lack even a fundamental understanding of these concepts. This isn't a reasoned judgment based on your interpretation of Socialist literature. This is a witch hunt. It is masturbatory exercise, and a near-textbook example of a straw-man argument. What the people whom you are, badly, attempting to paraphrase are trying to point out to you is that Marxist-Leninism is a substantial departure from what was the predominent trend, up until that point, in Socialist thought. Socialism, until this point, had alsmost uniformly been of a Libertarian character, both among Anarchists and Marxists. Leninism was also condemned by Anarchists, such as; Mikhail Bakunin, Alexander Berkman, Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin, etc., and the leading Marxists, including; Karl Korsch, Rosa Luxemberg, Anton Pannekoek, and even Trotsky, at one point, just to name a few. See, I don't think you have much of an idea who these people are, let alone having sufficient knowledge of their works to be able to offer meaningful commentary on the subject.

They say knowledge is power. Is this true? Though I'm learning about the scourge of communism and the people who clung to the belief, undoubtedly there will be naive members who will claim communism is A-OK, that their belief is more valid than an older Chinese author or two who actually lived through such horror. Undoubtedly, I know there are ex-Soviets et al who will tell you the folly of following communism; but don't believe the people who actually experienced communism, because they, of course, must be wrong.

See above.
Communism is a poisonous ideology responsible for the death of millions.

No, but Christianity is.

Mao Tse-Tung was one such communist; his wicked acts are legion. He is but one.

Mao Tse-Tung was a corrupt autocrat.

Do you think communism is detrimental and Mao an evil mass-murderer?

It depends what you mean by 'communism.' If you mean the Marxist concept of the final stage of history; an egalitarian, socialist, direct democracy; I'd say that's very nearly ideal.

Mao Tse-Tung was a corrupt autocrat, that's enough. Also, you shouldn't use words like 'evil' so frequently, if you want to be taken seriously.
 
To electorate a little more on the post above more, not only was Leninism opposed by the various people mentioned, it was even stated by Lenin himself to have been developed only to suit the unique conditions of Russia at the time of the revolution and wasn't really meant as a universal path to socialism.
 
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