View Poll Results: Is communism a blight upon society and Mao Tse-Tung an evil Communist?

Voters
18. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes to both

    3 16.67%
  • Only communism is bad

    0 0%
  • Only Mao Tse-Tung was wicked, not communism

    9 50.00%
  • Neither communism nor Mao are responsible for wickedness

    4 22.22%
  • I'm unsure (Please ask questions to help you become sure)

    2 11.11%
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 48

Thread: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

  1. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Last Seen
    02-13-13 @ 12:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    18,536
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    In general terms, communism is flawed and therefore deemed "bad/wrong" because power is centralized, typically, in the hands of one person with a great chain of command. Based on my readings, I know Stalin and Tse-Tung ruthlessly killed their underlings in their paranoia. From my reading of Mao, I know he contributed to the murder of his second wife. Millions died of famine due to his inaction..

    But for communism itself, I'll quote my PDF version of the Communist Manifesto later (I can't copy/paste or patch in links, etc). I do know vast power is given to the government in order to make communism work. I know people don't get to own stuff; they merely work to earn their food. Iirc, there's... 10 planks or precepts? I can't recall. Simply put communism seems to drain the individual's ability to own property, run a business, compete/innovate, etc..

  2. #32
    Uncanny
    Paschendale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New York City
    Last Seen
    03-31-16 @ 04:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    12,510

    Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    Totalitarian control emerges in monarchies, democracies, theocracies, and pretty much every other political system that has ever existed. Communism and socialism both call for democracy, by the way. But the point is that no system is immune to corruption and monolithic control. Communism is not more susceptible than any other democracy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    In general terms, communism is flawed and therefore deemed "bad/wrong" because power is centralized, typically, in the hands of one person with a great chain of command. Based on my readings, I know Stalin and Tse-Tung ruthlessly killed their underlings in their paranoia. From my reading of Mao, I know he contributed to the murder of his second wife. Millions died of famine due to his inaction..

    But for communism itself, I'll quote my PDF version of the Communist Manifesto later (I can't copy/paste or patch in links, etc). I do know vast power is given to the government in order to make communism work. I know people don't get to own stuff; they merely work to earn their food. Iirc, there's... 10 planks or precepts? I can't recall. Simply put communism seems to drain the individual's ability to own property, run a business, compete/innovate, etc..
    Communism requires none of that. It does not necessarily put power in the hands of one person. In fact, to do so is antithetical to socialist ideals. As is "draining the individual's ability to own property, run a business, compete/innovate, etc." Those are the marks of dictators who usurp socialism, not socialists themselves.
    Last edited by Paschendale; 07-23-11 at 08:51 PM.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  3. #33
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Post Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    First off, communism is impossible. You can't combine anarcy and a classless society.

    Socialism have been tried severall times in many different formes, and have been a failure every single time. People who sympathize with socialism, say it is only due to bad leaders. Implying that if socialism had a good leader, it would be good system. That is wrong, the problem is socialism itself.

    First off, socialism will not work like socialist want it to work. Socialist leaders tend to get frustrated against it's own people, because they are not acting like they want them to. People are genetically lazy. It is human nature to do the least possible work possible. If there are no incentives to work, then people's effort will be low and people will cheat the system. Socialists analyze a lot, but they don't factor in factors which will work against them.

    When asked about incentives, then you will generally get this brief answer.
    workers would have strong incentives to be productive in a socialist society because they would be working the social interest,
    This shows why socialism fails on incentives, because the only way to make them work is if they support the system and they can change human nature so people are less selfish. In reality they are not able to either and work ethics will be poor.

    Secondly, socialism is an inefficient system in itself, especially when combined with democracy. Think about oil and venezuela. Venezuela nationalized their oil production, but production fell. Why? Because people rather want better heath service than investments in oil production. Also, if propery is shared, then people will act as if no one own the property, hence tragedy of the commons. And the best ideas come from the sole entepenour, not the government. Even in a system where people worked hard, would still be an inefficient system.

    Thirdly, socialist leaders are horrible leaders, because they are so arrogant. They think they are morally superior other people who don't share their beliefs. I can't mention one socialist leader who haven't oppressed or killed the ones who disagree with him. Is that just bad luck? The problem isn't the leaders, but the socialism itself and the ones who support it.
    Last edited by Camlon; 07-23-11 at 10:15 PM.

  4. #34
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    I'm not even going to argue this. You may as well say Stalin wasn't a communist.
    If we define Communist as by what Marx wrote, Stalin was by definition not a Communist either. Totalitarian mass murder crazy nut-job yes, but Communist no.

    The problem with how you define Communist is you define Communist as whatever self proclaimed Communists did. There's a big problem with that definition as you just rendered judgment that the United States is Communist.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  5. #35
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    First off, communism is impossible. You can't combine anarcy and a classless society.
    At least in Humans.

    Socialism have been tried severall times in many different formes, and have been a failure every single time. People who sympathize with socialism, say it is only due to bad leaders. Implying that if socialism had a good leader, it would be good system. That is wrong, the problem is socialism itself.
    That depends how you define Socialism. Basically every functioning society is at least partially Socialist, with Socialist services ranging from roads to healthcare. Furthermore, Capitalism requires some level of Socialism to pick up costs that capitalist themselves won't. Think of the road system. If every road was a toll road, we'd have an an exceptionally inefficent system that would slow down the non-IP side of capitalism immensely. By socializing roads, capitalism gains large amounts of efficiencies at relatively low costs.

    First off, socialism will not work like socialist want it to work.
    That is true.

    Secondly, socialism is an inefficient system in itself, especially when combined with democracy. Think about oil and venezuela. Venezuela nationalized their oil production, but production fell. Why? Because people rather want better heath service than investments in oil production. Also, the best ideas come from the sole entepenour, not the government.
    Well that depends on how far you take Socialism. There are plenty of grades of Socialism from state backed infrastructure support providing defense to full outright nanny state nationalizing all industries.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  6. #36
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Last Seen
    02-13-13 @ 12:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    18,536
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    If we define Communist as by what Marx wrote, Stalin was by definition not a Communist either. Totalitarian mass murder crazy nut-job yes, but Communist no.

    The problem with how you define Communist is you define Communist as whatever self proclaimed Communists did. There's a big problem with that definition as you just rendered judgment that the United States is Communist.
    You see, that's frustrating. You're saying true communists don't exist.

    Whether partial or no, these people all believed and followed communism the best they could. They set the platform and a dictator eventually arose in each scenario.

    Have any actual communists ever existed? Has true communism ever existed?

    If not, ever, then why persist in the belief of communism? Why not probe into different ideologies?

  7. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    At least in Humans.

    That depends how you define Socialism. Basically every functioning society is at least partially Socialist, with Socialist services ranging from roads to healthcare. Furthermore, Capitalism requires some level of Socialism to pick up costs that capitalist themselves won't. Think of the road system. If every road was a toll road, we'd have an an exceptionally inefficent system that would slow down the non-IP side of capitalism immensely. By socializing roads, capitalism gains large amounts of efficiencies at relatively low costs.

    That is true.

    Well that depends on how far you take Socialism. There are plenty of grades of Socialism from state backed infrastructure support providing defense to full outright nanny state nationalizing all industries.
    I follow the oxford dictionary definition. Hence, mixed economies are not socialists. I don't support pure capitalism either. The most important thing in a mixed economy is to care about incentives. In libeterian societies the poor will have no chance against rich kids who attend private schools, so they will get the incentive to either do crime or to quit school and do unqualified work. In socialistic societies people will have the incentive to let other produce while they are being lazy. There is a reason why all developed countries favour mixed economies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxford Dictionary
    A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

  8. #38
    Professor
    atrasicarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Last Seen
    12-23-12 @ 05:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    2,227

    Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

  9. #39
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    You see, that's frustrating. You're saying true communists don't exist.
    Actual Communist countries do not exist. People may be Communists themselves in their beliefs.

    Whether partial or no, these people all believed and followed communism the best they could. They set the platform and a dictator eventually arose in each scenario.
    But that does not make their countries Communist. And no, they didn't do the best they could have. Absolutely none of the leaders of so called Communist countries ever gave real power to the masses. Every single one of those leaders retained the stratified class system to maintain power. Many of them openly traded with the West. Some never even attempted to get rid of property rights. There was a lot they could have done to nudge closer to Marx. And they failed. Horribly at it. Granted, that's probably good since Communism is bad, but it does not change the fact they are not Communism. Your definition opens a huge can of worms as it defines every nation on the planet at some point Communism.

    Have any actual communists ever existed? Has true communism ever existed?
    People? Sure. Countries? No. However, I do believe that small Indian groups in the Alps and African Pygmies deep in the jungle have gotten the closest with classless societies, communal ownership and power distributed fairly evenly. In some ways, it could be argued that Communism can work in small communities of relatively primitive people where their simply aren't resources to accumulate any real form of wealth. That's hardly a good way to live though.

    If not, ever, then why persist in the belief of communism? Why not probe into different ideologies?
    That is a good topic for a PHD dissertation. I don't know why it persists. Maybe because the Cold War is still somewhat relevant? I'm really not sure.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  10. #40
    Professor
    atrasicarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Last Seen
    12-23-12 @ 05:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    2,227

    Re: Mao Tse-Tung & the Red Poison known as Communism

    Parts of Spain were actually communist for a couple of years. That's the closest anyone's ever gotten.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •