View Poll Results: Was it Ever?

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  • Yes

    6 18.75%
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    18 56.25%
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Thread: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

  1. #101
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I am actually using definitions, not politics. By the way, you might not want to jump to conclusions about my politics either on the issue of the negotiations going on.
    You've already done that to yourself: Lean: Very Liberal

  2. #102
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I've covered this before. We can pay whatever is necessary to avoid default. These are the things like your car or house payment. I'm not going to be upset if we have to bring the soldiers home.
    I won't either for that matter, but CP above says we can't afford medicare. I would consider that part of our bills, that would fit the definition. I believe any reasonable and responsibile settlement would include both spending cuts and tax increases. And a government that was doing its job would work to compromise, as that is the way a democracy works. We cannot function without consensus. So anyone signing pledges, seeking to have their own way and the compromise be danmned, has misunderstood and perverted the process IMHO.

    One more thing, as for the issue of whether the stimulus was a success or failure, I would argue more somewhere inbetween. It did not accomplish all hoped for, but things may well have been worse without it. Like many, I believe the stimulus did not go far enough, but the nature of these efforts is short term, and not long term. At best, they stop the bleeding. At worse, they slow it. Seeking an all or nothing verdict is not neccessarily the most accurate way to approach it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #103
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I won't either for that matter, but CP above says we can't afford medicare. I would consider that part of our bills, that would fit the definition.
    If that is not paid, that would be something that would bring the worse out in me. Just the same as S.S. Politicians have told us for years that both of these were fully funded. Everyone knows it was a huge lie but it's one the politicians have to live with. I'd be right there when people go to Washington and demand the ouster of all the politicians that claim this.

    That is a different arguement than the one for reform. Those who say that we must reform these programs are saying "the money is not there".

    I believe any reasonable and responsibile settlement would include both spending cuts and tax increases. And a government that was doing its job would work to compromise, as that is the way a democracy works. We cannot function without consensus. So anyone signing pledges, seeking to have their own way and the compromise be danmned, has misunderstood and perverted the process IMHO.
    I've mentioned taxes I would support but as I've also said, I've not seen those taxes suggested anywhere.

    One more thing, as for the issue of whether the stimulus was a success or failure, I would argue more somewhere inbetween. It did not accomplish all hoped for, but things may well have been worse without it. Like many, I believe the stimulus did not go far enough, but the nature of these efforts is short term, and not long term. At best, they stop the bleeding. At worse, they slow it. Seeking an all or nothing verdict is not neccessarily the most accurate way to approach it.
    I understand the arguement and I would never argue that you shouldn't make it. My arguement is it's only as valid as the arguement that it did more harm than good.

  4. #104
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I understand the arguement and I would never argue that you shouldn't make it. My arguement is it's only as valid as the arguement that it did more harm than good.
    Not sure that is true. But I do agree there is room for debate there. I suspect it would have been much, much worse without the stimulus and the bailouts. Huge amounts of money spent, but that may very well have kept us from seeing something much worse.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  5. #105
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    We've done this before with me providing links to past articles that notes the Tea Party got started over the outrage at the give aways to Wall Street but yet, none of it seems to matter to you. You'll continue to make your baseless accusations because the Tea Party realizes that everyone is going to have to pitch in, including you and you don't seem to care for that.
    Your right, I dont disagree with you...but the fiasco over obamacare and Pelsosi was a part of it...I went to 4 local teaparty rallies and foremost was obamacare

  6. #106
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not sure that is true. But I do agree there is room for debate there. I suspect it would have been much, much worse without the stimulus and the bailouts. Huge amounts of money spent, but that may very well have kept us from seeing something much worse.
    And I believe that while we might have had a slight bit more pain, we would have been past it by now and not be this much more into debt. So in the end it seems you agree by noting "not sure", "suspect", "may" that your belief isn't absolute and other beliefs could be what would have happened.

    I can make an arguement for my position for everyone you can provide.

  7. #107
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Your right, I dont disagree with you...but the fiasco over obamacare and Pelsosi was a part of it...I went to 4 local teaparty rallies and foremost was obamacare
    Yes, they were against that also but if you will allow me to jump conclusions here, you are saying that was defending corporations? If so I disagree. They want reforms also but see a different path to them.

  8. #108
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Yes, they were against that also but if you will allow me to jump conclusions here, you are saying that was defending corporations? If so I disagree. They want reforms also but see a different path to them.
    That is not what im saying...at that point when the rallys first started it was supported at least in my area in fla by working class babyboomers. They did not expect the teaparty to morph into lets cut everything for the working class, attack public workers and Blame Social Security Medicare and Public workers for all our debt and the current economic climate.
    These debt ceiling debates if anyone wants to be honest are in limbo strictly because the teaparty is forcing Boehner not to accept anything but what THEY want.
    That is not negotiating in good faith...that is merely gestapo demanding.

  9. #109
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    And I believe that while we might have had a slight bit more pain, we would have been past it by now and not be this much more into debt. So in the end it seems you agree by noting "not sure", "suspect", "may" that your belief isn't absolute and other beliefs could be what would have happened.

    I can make an arguement for my position for everyone you can provide.
    I think it would have been a lot more more, the jobs that would have been lost, would have been gone for any foreseeable futrue, and we'd hardly be over it.

    And yes, I try not to use absolutes. One certainty is we can't be 100% sure about what wasn't done. But, it is reasonable to look at the possible effects of letting the auto industy fall, letting the fall go it's full course. It is unlikely that it would be better to have done so. It may have been right to so, another issue, but hardly less painful for either the short or long term. Schools would have lsot teachers with little to no time to prepare, this would have hurt education in a very serious way. Unemployment nation wide would have been considerably higher. This is almost certain.

    So, while I am sure you can throw up some things, as I said there is room for debate, I simply don't believe you're correct. And I think the evidence is largely on my side. But I don't expect everyone to agree (there's that avoiding absolutes again ).

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #110
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    Re: Was A Big Deal Ever Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I think it would have been a lot more more, the jobs that would have been lost, would have been gone for any foreseeable futrue, and we'd hardly be over it.
    O.K. I disagree. Not really anywhere to go beyond that.

    And yes, I try not to use absolutes. One certainty is we can't be 100% sure about what wasn't done. But, it is reasonable to look at the possible effects of letting the auto industy fall, letting the fall go it's full course.
    There was absolutely no reason the auto industries had to fail barring government intervention. Or at the very least to the amount it did. We could have simply put them into a structured bankruptcy that would have hurt, but it would have been done without giving away Chrysler and telling creditors to get lost. How do you get people to invest in a company when you know that the government might come along and simply say your investment is no longer valid, we are going to give it to someone else?

    It is unlikely that it would be better to have done so. It may have been right to so, another issue, but hardly less painful for either the short or long term. Schools would have lsot teachers with little to no time to prepare, this would have hurt education in a very serious way. Unemployment nation wide would have been considerably higher. This is almost certain.
    It's not.

    So, while I am sure you can throw up some things, as I said there is room for debate, I simply don't believe you're correct. And I think the evidence is largely on my side. But I don't expect everyone to agree (there's that avoiding absolutes again ).
    You completely ignore the psychological side. Obama's proposed budget was loaded with more and more spending. It's why it was defeated 0-97. People are very reluctant to go back to "normal" because they know all this stuff that is still piling up (current loss with Chrysler, the continue sinkhole that is Fannie Mae) has to be paid for.

    I believe that rather than bailing out Wall Street we would have allowed them to take their lumps and then arrest those who ran astray of the law (and there are many, many of them) that people would have had more faith in the economy and government. Right now many do not have any faith in the government, the economy or the markets.

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