View Poll Results: How To Eliminate Poverty, Re-establish the Middle-Class? Check all you agree with

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  • Government funded higher education just as other industrialized nations do

    29 35.37%
  • Cut out tax loopholes for the rich to benefit the lower and middle class

    37 45.12%
  • Start disallowing outsourcing to other countries for lower wages

    31 37.80%
  • Institute a flat tax

    34 41.46%
  • Disallow those in poverty to have children

    39 47.56%
  • This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class

    15 18.29%
  • There should always be poverty

    9 10.98%
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Thread: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

  1. #1
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    Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    This pole was spurred by a thread I read and responded to regarding the birth control and the poor.

    This was the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    at least according to this Fox Newsie:

    Does fair and balanced have to include rational?
    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Well, it is in a way. People having more children than they can financially care for is certainly a large contributer to continued and worsened poverty. Yeah, completely accessible birth control will get rid of a lot of the poor... by virtue of some of them digging their way out of poverty BEFORE they have kids.

    I know, it's terrible.
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 07-23-11 at 01:43 AM.

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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    This pole was spurred by a thread I read and responded to regarding the birth control and the poor.

    This was the OP:
    My OP to this was:

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Regardless of whether people are able to find a way to beat the odds and get out of poverty, humans are, according to scientists, animals who adapt to their environments. One of the often drawn parallels between often seen reproduction strategies in other animals as compared to humans, involves the hostility of the environment.

    Among non-human animals we see that the more hostile the environment is to the animal, the more babies the animal is likely to have and the less hostile it is, the fewer they are likely to have. For example, sea turtles lay enormous amounts of eggs as their babies must run the gauntlet of preying birds before they get to the ocean; additionally, they are very small compared to mature turtles when they hatch and their average life expectancy is low because they still have to grow into full sized adults without becoming prey to other predators in the sea all without the assistance of the mother.

    On the other hand, bears, for example, have one (or two if they have twins) bay at a time as their environment is no where near as hostile as that of the sea turtle. There are no predators that target bears other than humans and the mother bear stays with the cub until it is an adult. So as you can see the more hostile the environment, the more children are birthed; the less hostile the environment the less children are birthed.

    Some argue that among other things, the reason why humans have more babies when in poverty is due to a lack of education or access to birth control. However, in the U.S., where birth control is free and so is public education up to the 12th grade, we still see more babies born per woman in poverty than we do in wealth.

    See the graph/links below showing the relationship between wealth and births:



    http://www.freakonomics.com/wp-conte...rsimage012.png

    Freakonomics The Rich vs Poor Debate: Are Kids Normal or Inferior Goods?

    What's the solution you may ask ... to me it seems relatively clear ... force the poor to keep their births low or make our environment less hostile, i.e. distribute the wealth in a more even fashion, making it possible for a lower class to be paid a living wage, re-establishing the middle class, while still allowing an upper class
    So what does everyone think? Do you agree, disagree or do you not care (if not, why?)

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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    those are some strange answer choices

    no middle class?

    maybe there will always be poverty rather than there should be



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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    those are some strange answer choices

    no middle class?

    maybe there will always be poverty rather than there should be
    OK, TD, in all seriousness, you seriously got me laughing out loud on this one

    I enjoy your usual cynicism

    I off course wanted to see how many people want to push toward lower and lower levels of poverty .. I too am not sure if complete elimination is possible

    So you picked "there will always be poverty"?

    Now that I look at it I realize I should have had that be an option without the added "and no middle class" that's an oops on my part, lol!

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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    those are some strange answer choices

    no middle class?

    maybe there will always be poverty rather than there should be
    I'm glad at least that you don't think there should be poverty

    While you believe there will always be poverty, do you think anything should be done to lower poverty levels?

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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    My OP to this was:



    So what does everyone think? Do you agree, disagree or do you not care (if not, why?)
    There may be some validity to that. Very interesting. I am most interested however in addressing the political induced reasons and moral implications for the increasing number of poor in this country.
    Last edited by Catawba; 07-23-11 at 02:41 AM.
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    There may be some validity to that. Very interesting. I am most interested however in addressing the political induced reasons and moral implications for the increasing number of poor in this country.
    Yes I know what you mean ... its some of the reasons people allow poverty and consider themselves ethical people that gets me. In ethical terms, and as my my ethical professor used to say, its "fuzzy logic" - people need to have ethics that are consistent.

    For example, if you say or believe you care about the people of the world and would like to see less suffering, why support causes that in no way help those that suffer? It's like saying, "I am against killing animals and sitting down and eating a steak". It's "fuzzy logic"

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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    I believe that there should be government funded higher education. But then I believe that all knowledge should be freely available anyways. Also there is a correlation between those with higher education commiting less crimes. Always a plus imo.

    While I do think that the loopholes that many rich get should be cut I think that that alone is not enough. I think that if we are to lessen the amount of poverty then we should be encouraging companies to hire people. We can do this via tax cuts based solely on the amount of people that a company hires or employ's. Admittedly not sure how to do this as eventually a company must stop hiring people or it cannot be sustained as companies are not able to continueally grow ad infinitum.

    I somewhat agree with the option of not allowing companies to outsource to other countries. But I would first perfer to try and lure them back here by giving them some sort of incentive that would outweigh the higher rate of pay here vs other countries. Perhaps one way of doing this would be to not tax them at all (or a very small tax on them..say 1-5%?) on all exports while increasing import taxes.

    I agree with a flat tax however that is only because I don't mind paying taxes. However a flat federal tax would NOT help people out of poverty. If anything it would keep them in poverty.

    No way in hell would I ever agree to the federal government...or state government for that matter, forcing people to not have children....for any reason.

    I do believe that there will always be poverty. That is just the way the natural world works. There always have to be the low man on the totem pole. The level where one is considered to be in poverty may change...but there will always be someone "lower" than someone else financially speaking.
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    The first three. Also, public works programs and universal health care.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Please tell me 10 of you were joking when you said "disallow people in poverty from having children."

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