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Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

How To Eliminate Poverty, Re-establish the Middle-Class? Check all you agree with

  • Government funded higher education just as other industrialized nations do

    Votes: 28 68.3%
  • Cut out tax loopholes for the rich to benefit the lower and middle class

    Votes: 34 82.9%
  • Start disallowing outsourcing to other countries for lower wages

    Votes: 28 68.3%
  • Institute a flat tax

    Votes: 7 17.1%
  • Disallow those in poverty to have children

    Votes: 2 4.9%
  • This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • There should always be poverty

    Votes: 6 14.6%

  • Total voters
    41
Success is due to a combination of ability, drive to succeed, and luck. Some can make it with almost nothing, some have everything handed to them and still can't make it. But on average, the position one is born into in this society plays a larger role. If someone grows up in a family that doesn't teach responsibility, that person isn't likely to succeed regardless of other factors.

Sure there are, but if one generalizes, their placement on the food chain at birth is the largest determinant of success.

Again, you keep looking at results and not opportunity. Equal results is quite different from equal opportunity.
 
Again, you keep looking at results and not opportunity. Equal results is quite different from equal opportunity.

Does a low income person have the same opportunity to succeed as a millionaire? It depends on how one defines success, but the results cannot be completely separated from opportunity; otherwise, how does one measure equal opportunity?
 
Again, you keep looking at results and not opportunity. Equal results is quite different from equal opportunity.

Equal opportunity doesn't exist, not in the real world :shrug:

If truly equal opportunity were indeed to exist, "equal results" would also have to be pursued to some degree. For equal opportunity to exist, everyone would need to be born into the same station in life. Same quality parents, same quality schools, same quality job opportunities, etc. That simply doesn't happen in the real world, unless you make everyone and their parents the same.
 
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Equal opportunity means that a person can succeed if they put forth the effort and follow a path of virtues and not vices. It doesn't mean everyone will succeed, but only that they have the opportunity to do so. There are plenty of stories of people who have succeeded in spite of their immediate environment.

Equal opportunity means a race where everyone starts at the starting line. It doesn't mean a race where some people get a 50 meter head start and other people have a ball and chain attached to their ankle. Sure, it's still possible for the ball and chain guy to win, but claiming there's equal opportunity and all he has to do is work a little harder is just being disingenuous.
 
Does a low income person have the same opportunity to succeed as a millionaire? It depends on how one defines success, but the results cannot be completely separated from opportunity; otherwise, how does one measure equal opportunity?

A low income person can become a billionaire; therefore, he or she has equal opportunity.
 
Equal opportunity doesn't exist, not in the real world :shrug:

If truly equal opportunity were indeed to exist, "equal results" would also have to be pursued to some degree. For equal opportunity to exist, everyone would need to be born into the same station in life. Same quality parents, same quality schools, same quality job opportunities, etc. That simply doesn't happen in the real world, unless you make everyone and their parents the same.

Oh, but it does exist in the real world. A poor person can become a millionaire and a millionaire can become poor. That simply happens in the real world.
 
Equal opportunity means a race where everyone starts at the starting line. It doesn't mean a race where some people get a 50 meter head start and other people have a ball and chain attached to their ankle. Sure, it's still possible for the ball and chain guy to win, but claiming there's equal opportunity and all he has to do is work a little harder is just being disingenuous.

Yet another person who does not understand equal opportunity. It exists. If you persist in saying that it does not, please keep the discussion only to those who cannot deal with achieving success... certain liberals. We conservatives know better and believe that such talk is extremely self-fulfilling.
 
Oh, but it does exist in the real world. A poor person can become a millionaire and a millionaire can become poor. That simply happens in the real world.

That's not what equal opportunity means. Equal opportunity means everyone has the same opportunities.
 
That's not what equal opportunity means. Equal opportunity means everyone has the same opportunities.

I'm sorry you disagree. My definition has been the same for 66 years and I went from a one room living quarters in an old machine shed, with tin roof, no bathtub or shower, pot-bellied coal stove, concrete floors, tar paper shingles, to living in an area with our own country club. Please do not tell me what equal opportunity means. I have lived it. If you are living in a one room living area with the fine amenities we had, I suggest you develop some positive virtues of hard work, personal responsibility, self-discipline, tenacity, frugality, and the rest and make it happen. It's there, but you cannot sit around and just piss and moan. That is self-defeating.

If I may be so bold, I suggest that you go to the library and get a book or two or three on developing a PMA, Positive Mental Attitude. "What the mind can see and believe, it can achieve." Never were truer words written. I did not say this with sarcasm. I mean every word of this. I have recommended the same for my children and I will be recommending it to my grandchildren. Attitude is a huge part of the battle.
 
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Well, there you go again. Equal opportunity exists. Equal results does not. Thank goodness!! Anyone with a sound mind and body can make it in America. It takes utilizing virtues and not vices. It takes hard work, getting educated (not necessarily a degree), self-discipline, personal responsibility, tenacity, frugality, and the rest. That does not mean everyone becomes "wealthy." Making it should be simply being self-sufficient.

There you go again! :) Deciding that by equal opportunity I mean "equal results"; a very silly assumption especially since I have not suggested anything of the sort. I think it is insulting that you would assume that when I say equal opportunity, what I really mean is "equal results". Do we need to have a little breakdown of what the terms mean? Do you think equal opportunity means equal results? Because if I remember correctly, I used the term equal opportunity (did I not?).

And yes, it is good that we do not have equal results; I am able to look past your insult to see that we both agree that there should not be equal results.

Also I could not agree more that those are important virtues. Wow we agree on more than you are trying to make it appear .. don't we :)

Perhaps you should stop trying to drive a wedge between us and focus on what we agree on instead of putting words in my mouth ... I think what I wrote is quite clear:

I.E. .... we are far from a point where everyone has equal opportunity as we do not start off with the same levels.

As you may be able to deduce .. it is still possible (in fact very possible) for people to start a race at the same line and end up with very different finishing times. Thus, one can have equal opportunity without equal results.

However, if a runner (or runners) gets a head start, the likely hood that those without that head start are able to catch up with those with the head start, decreases. You see, a select few individuals will be very, very fast and they will be able to catch up .. however, some (who do not have a head start) will be just as fast as those who have a head start, however, they will still fail to catch up; indeed, they will be behind those with the head start. So, as we can see, simply because one racer was able to catch up despite his/her disadvantage, is not necessarily a sign of equal opportunity. In fact, statistically speaking, fewer people making it to the top (i.e. the very wealthy) and a whole lot of people being stuck in the lower classes, without much of a middle class to speak of, is actually a sign of a lack of equal opportunity (not the other way around ... this is deduced using simple statistics).

Sadly, our current situation is that we have the largest gap between the economic classes that we have seen in a long time. Sorry to burst your bubble .. it's just called getting one's head out of the sand and embracing reality, instead of acting and believing that everything is honky-dory. You see, its much more painful to deal with reality and requires an amount of work that some people aren't willing to face, as they may risk feelings of guilt ... the great thing is, its never to late to redeem one's self. What's more scary, is those who are not willing to accept that they were ever wrong; I have little respect for people who aren't willing to admit that they are or were wrong or have been mislead or misinformed about something, as this is called being human. It is my belief that no human has never made a mistake .. period.

Thanks for listening :)
 
A better question should be should an American consumer buy an American product when they can buy foriegn products?:peace

a consumer has a duty to maximize his own utility. some stuff you have to buy foreign sometimes the quality and cost is equal and in that case I buy american. sometimes the american stuff of equal quality is far more expensive, then I buy Foreign
 
True, BUT.....
How about if the lawyer kicks his kids to the curb as soon as they turn 18? and the construction worker saves and encourages his kids to go to college?
In my family, we were all equally treated, once we turned 18 we were told to get out.
Long term for us, 2 have done well and retired well, 1 is OK, 2 are very poor. Same parents, same schools....
Ability and ambition are the major factors.
Success has different levels..different interpretations.
The level of success that SHOULD be a minimum standard is that of being more of contributor to society than a drain on society.

Now that you've brought up your family .. I remember you saying that you started working when the economy was better .. so what year did you get "kicked to the curb"?

By the way .. I don't think anyone is arguing that different people do not have different talents and abilities .. I think we are simply arguing that if some people have a financial and or educational head start in life, it is more likely that they will do better financially. Granted a select few, statistically insignificant, number of individuals will become very wealthy without a head start, but most will not.

So I am not disagreeing with your proposition that different people have different abilities .. instead .. what I mean (and I believe this is what most other people believe as well) is that equal opportunity means no one gets a head start, no one gets to start 100 yards down the track .. everyone starts at the same position. I hope I am making myself clear.

Additionally, equal opportunity does not mean that many will be born with nothing and endure severe hardship only to barely support themselves while being a contributor to society. Rather, it means that each will be born with an equal probability of acauiring any amount of economic standing. Whether or not they reach different levels should depend on their abilities (as you have pointed out), rather than what economic situation they were born into.
 
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Does a low income person have the same opportunity to succeed as a millionaire? It depends on how one defines success, but the results cannot be completely separated from opportunity; otherwise, how does one measure equal opportunity?

I think either LesGovt is trying to be tricky and is using a play on words in order to dupe those who can't really tell the difference or he/she cannot tell the difference him/herself.

As any statistician will tell you, with the vast number of individuals we have in the U.S., after controlling for certain variables, such as charisma, intelligence, skill etc., there should be approximately the same number of wealthy individuals from a group of people born into poverty with these traits, as there are from a group of people born into wealth, if there is a system of true equal opportunity.

One confabulatory variable with such studies is the fact that those born into poverty often do not get the proper nutrition needed for full development. Additionally, those born into poverty may not get as much needed time spent with their parents as their parents may be working more, suffering from situational depression (depression brought on by an inability to better themselves, from a lack of opportunity to have non-menial jobs (activities that stimulate the brain to a higher degree have been shown to decrease depression), chronic debt, being emotionally abused by supervisors/bosses) or continually fighting over finances with their spouse or significant other. These variables play a significant role in the physical and psychological well-being and development of children. So, those born into poverty are, in this sense, more affected by the consequences of not having good, high paying jobs, than simply not having money.

According to Maslow (a psychologist, researcher and theorist), having food and shelter are only the lowest level of many human needs. Therefore, one can imagine how stressful it must be for those worrying an a day-to-day and week-to-week basis about how and where their family will get the money to pay for food and shelter. A very few select families will be able to handle this kind of stress and raise children who have managed to get most of the nutrition and supportive environment needed to be able to attain generational upward class movement. An even fewer amount will beat the odds and rear children who will actually become very wealthy.
 
Equal opportunity doesn't exist, not in the real world :shrug:

If truly equal opportunity were indeed to exist, "equal results" would also have to be pursued to some degree. For equal opportunity to exist, everyone would need to be born into the same station in life. Same quality parents, same quality schools, same quality job opportunities, etc. That simply doesn't happen in the real world, unless you make everyone and their parents the same.

Absolutely true, no ideal situation can ever be reached .. however, this does not mean we cannot move closer to that ideal situation.
 
A low income person can become a billionaire; therefore, he or she has equal opportunity.

This is ridiculous .. see my (and others') previous posts that disprove this myth.
 
Oh, but it does exist in the real world. A poor person can become a millionaire and a millionaire can become poor. That simply happens in the real world.

Have you not been listening? Simply because one or a few people become a millionaire does not mean that equal opportunity exists. Several people, including myself, have disproved this myth. This is totally backward logic .. in fact .. what is the reasoning behind such an outrageous statement? Please explain, keeping in mind the arguments that have blown this myth out of the water,
 
I'm sorry you disagree. My definition has been the same for 66 years and I went from a one room living quarters in an old machine shed, with tin roof, no bathtub or shower, pot-bellied coal stove, concrete floors, tar paper shingles, to living in an area with our own country club. Please do not tell me what equal opportunity means. I have lived it. If you are living in a one room living area with the fine amenities we had, I suggest you develop some positive virtues of hard work, personal responsibility, self-discipline, tenacity, frugality, and the rest and make it happen. It's there, but you cannot sit around and just piss and moan. That is self-defeating.

If I may be so bold, I suggest that you go to the library and get a book or two or three on developing a PMA, Positive Mental Attitude. "What the mind can see and believe, it can achieve." Never were truer words written. I did not say this with sarcasm. I mean every word of this. I have recommended the same for my children and I will be recommending it to my grandchildren. Attitude is a huge part of the battle.

Hmmm ... very interesting .. since you are 66 years old, you have had the benefit of living during times when there was a larger middles class (you started living on your own at 18, which was what around 1963?) and better upward mobility. Granted things weren't perfect, but you have had a chance to see times that were much kinder to those in the bottom ranks than they are now. This is not to dispute the fact that you must have worked very hard, as you did. Instead, this is to say that it is not likely that you would have had the same success had you been 18 in say the year 2000.

That is one of the big problems currently. Many parents are assuming that because they were able to achieve a certain upward mobility, then their children should too. However, they fail to see how much worse the economy is and how much less upward mobility is allowed presently. It really is an unfortunate thing. For those who understand this concept better, their children are fairing much better as families work together under the same roof for longer, supporting one another as is necessary. Good parents have faith in their parenting (as most psychologists agree that environmental factors are as important as genetic one's on outcome) and trust their child if they have been working hard in a poor economy without equal opportunity and are having financial problems. It may serve some parents egos to believe that they were actually better than their children, but this will only drive a wedge between them.

These are my opinions as a psychologist/counselor who has (and is still) studying statistics, sociology, social work, political science and of course psychology; they are also my own personal opinions formed using my own experience, the experiences I have observed in others and especially taking into consideration the vast amount of scientific literature regarding these topics.
 
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I am addressing this posting to anyone and everyone who is willing to read it. I do not address this to anyone in particular so any comments I make should not be a cause celebre for outrage or insult.

We are miles apart on what equal opportunity means. It does not mean that we start at the same place and end ahead of others. It means the opportunity to succeed is there for all.

I was raised in the Midwest. Maybe that could be a factor on how we view this subject. Maybe if I had been raised on the West Coast or New England, I would be as jaded as some. I have known, through experience, what poverty is and I have known success. I have known many other people in similar situations who have succeeded.

I was in management by the age of 23 for a national grocery chain and I have been a regional sales manager for other companies that many of you would know. I had equal opportunity and I made the best of it. I am not wildly rich by any stretch of the imagination; however, I have done well.

My brother was in management with the same grocery chain and he stayed in the grocery business his entire career. His last position was Vice President for a grocery chain, but not the same one I had worked for. His income was far superior to mine and he was raised in the same one room living area that was a machine shed.

My father-in-law got an 8th grade education. He owned his own plumbing, heating, and air conditioning company and lived in one of the nicest additions in my hometown, which had about 120,000 people and was a suburb of Kansas City. He was not born into wealth and his father was not a lawyer, but he made it in spite of his lack of formal education.

A year ago, my wife and I entertained a group of people from my graduating class. Here is a bit about them:

Person 1 - Was raised within a couple of miles from where I was raised and lived in an older lower-middle class home. He became a General Manager for a Steel Company, moved to various places in the U.S. and is currently in Birmingham, AL.

Person 2 - Was raised within a couple of blocks from Person A. He became a fire chief for the city where we were raised. He now shares two homes, one in our home town and one in Florida.

Person 3 - This person lived in a middle class neighborhood and his father was not a doctor or a lawyer. He became the chief administrator of a hospital in our home town.

Person 4 - Not sure what his father did, but his mother sold real estate. I think he was middle class. I think he has struggled attempting to find success, but I am not privy to much of what he has or has not done.

Person 5 - She probably came from the most well-to-do family of the group and she and her husband have lived in the neighborhood she grew up in until about a year ago. She moved to another suburb nearby.

None of us came from wealthy families. I came from the poorest and I have not succeeded as well as maybe two of them have, but I'm in there. All of us, except for one have succeeded. Everyone of us is thankful for the equal opportunity we had to become successful.

Another friend of ours went on to become an assitant city manager for a small city in California. He was definitely middle class. Another one from the lower-middle class works for Halliburton and goes to Iraq often to work.

And, then there is the son of a union boss. They lived in a neighborhood where people of old money lived. He ended up running a massage parlor and ran into problems with the law. He died nearly two decades ago. He came from money and died with some dirty money, if any at all.

Most of the fathers of all of us, at one time or another, worked in a factory doing line work or some other menial task, but none were managers or Vice Presidents.

Does equal opportunity exist? You bet it does.

Now, again, there are those who say that equal opportunity means that everyone has to start on the same line in order for equal opportunity to exist. Sorry, but that is hogwash. However, if you wish to tell yourself that the deck is stacked against you, I am convinced that you will prove yourself to be a psychic. On the other hand, if you tell yourself that equal opportunity exists and that you can succeed, the chances are good that you will succeed. You may not succeed too; however, your real chances of succeeding come from a positive and not a negative outlook.

I have told my children [now both are adults] that the world is theirs. They can have whatever part of it they wish to have. All they need to do is practice the positive virtues of self-discipline, personal responsibility, hard work, honesty, tenacity, frugality, etc. I told them not to listen to the naysayers and become familiar with what it means to have PMA. So far, my son is doing quite well and loves what he is doing. My daughter is struggling a bit, but she is close to graduating summa laude from a local university and years of night school and raising two kids on her own while working. I anticipate her career to take off soon. Incidentally, she has known poverty too. She has the virtues to make a success of herself and my bet is that she will one day outshine her brother.

So, again, I say to you, "Don't tell me equal opportunity does not exist." It does. As you have probably figured out by now, you cannot convince me otherwise. So, with that in mind, I might stick around to take on my detractors immediately after this posting, but soon I will depart from this discussion. If you want to argue against equal opportunity, I will let you, but I want no part of it.
 
I am addressing this posting to anyone and everyone who is willing to read it. I do not address this to anyone in particular so any comments I make should not be a cause celebre for outrage or insult.

We are miles apart on what equal opportunity means. It does not mean that we start at the same place and end ahead of others. It means the opportunity to succeed is there for all.

I was raised in the Midwest. Maybe that could be a factor on how we view this subject. Maybe if I had been raised on the West Coast or New England, I would be as jaded as some. I have known, through experience, what poverty is and I have known success. I have known many other people in similar situations who have succeeded.

I was in management by the age of 23 for a national grocery chain and I have been a regional sales manager for other companies that many of you would know. I had equal opportunity and I made the best of it. I am not wildly rich by any stretch of the imagination; however, I have done well.

My brother was in management with the same grocery chain and he stayed in the grocery business his entire career. His last position was Vice President for a grocery chain, but not the same one I had worked for. His income was far superior to mine and he was raised in the same one room living area that was a machine shed.

My father-in-law got an 8th grade education. He owned his own plumbing, heating, and air conditioning company and lived in one of the nicest additions in my hometown, which had about 120,000 people and was a suburb of Kansas City. He was not born into wealth and his father was not a lawyer, but he made it in spite of his lack of formal education.

A year ago, my wife and I entertained a group of people from my graduating class. Here is a bit about them:

Person 1 - Was raised within a couple of miles from where I was raised and lived in an older lower-middle class home. He became a General Manager for a Steel Company, moved to various places in the U.S. and is currently in Birmingham, AL.

Person 2 - Was raised within a couple of blocks from Person A. He became a fire chief for the city where we were raised. He now shares two homes, one in our home town and one in Florida.

Person 3 - This person lived in a middle class neighborhood and his father was not a doctor or a lawyer. He became the chief administrator of a hospital in our home town.

Person 4 - Not sure what his father did, but his mother sold real estate. I think he was middle class. I think he has struggled attempting to find success, but I am not privy to much of what he has or has not done.

Person 5 - She probably came from the most well-to-do family of the group and she and her husband have lived in the neighborhood she grew up in until about a year ago. She moved to another suburb nearby.

None of us came from wealthy families. I came from the poorest and I have not succeeded as well as maybe two of them have, but I'm in there. All of us, except for one have succeeded. Everyone of us is thankful for the equal opportunity we had to become successful.

Another friend of ours went on to become an assitant city manager for a small city in California. He was definitely middle class. Another one from the lower-middle class works for Halliburton and goes to Iraq often to work.

And, then there is the son of a union boss. They lived in a neighborhood where people of old money lived. He ended up running a massage parlor and ran into problems with the law. He died nearly two decades ago. He came from money and died with some dirty money, if any at all.

Most of the fathers of all of us, at one time or another, worked in a factory doing line work or some other menial task, but none were managers or Vice Presidents.

Does equal opportunity exist? You bet it does.

Now, again, there are those who say that equal opportunity means that everyone has to start on the same line in order for equal opportunity to exist. Sorry, but that is hogwash. However, if you wish to tell yourself that the deck is stacked against you, I am convinced that you will prove yourself to be a psychic. On the other hand, if you tell yourself that equal opportunity exists and that you can succeed, the chances are good that you will succeed. You may not succeed too; however, your real chances of succeeding come from a positive and not a negative outlook.

I have told my children [now both are adults] that the world is theirs. They can have whatever part of it they wish to have. All they need to do is practice the positive virtues of self-discipline, personal responsibility, hard work, honesty, tenacity, frugality, etc. I told them not to listen to the naysayers and become familiar with what it means to have PMA. So far, my son is doing quite well and loves what he is doing. My daughter is struggling a bit, but she is close to graduating summa laude from a local university and years of night school and raising two kids on her own while working. I anticipate her career to take off soon. Incidentally, she has known poverty too. She has the virtues to make a success of herself and my bet is that she will one day outshine her brother.

So, again, I say to you, "Don't tell me equal opportunity does not exist." It does. As you have probably figured out by now, you cannot convince me otherwise. So, with that in mind, I might stick around to take on my detractors immediately after this posting, but soon I will depart from this discussion. If you want to argue against equal opportunity, I will let you, but I want no part of it.

"Everyone has an opportunity to succeed" =/= "equal opportunity."
 
Hmmm ... very interesting .. since you are 66 years old, you have had the benefit of living during times when there was a larger middles class (you started living on your own at 18, which was what around 1963?) and better upward mobility. Granted things weren't perfect, but you have had a chance to see times that were much kinder to those in the bottom ranks than they are now. This is not to dispute the fact that you must have worked very hard, as you did. Instead, this is to say that it is not likely that you would have had the same success had you been 18 in say the year 2000.

I will agree that times are not good today or for the past two or three years. Prior to that, they were fine and they will be fine again. Advancement is still there in companies. People have always left employers or retired opening up positions. People get advancements and that opens up their positions. The opportunity is still there.

That is one of the big problems currently. Many parents are assuming that because they were able to achieve a certain upward mobility, then their children should too.

They can and my son validates that and my daughter will, in time.

However, they fail to see how much worse the economy is and how much less upward mobility is allowed presently. It really is an unfortunate thing. For those who understand this concept better, their children are fairing much better as families work together under the same roof for longer, supporting one another as is necessary. Good parents have faith in their parenting (as most psychologists agree that environmental factors are as important as genetic one's on outcome) and trust their child if they have been working hard in a poor economy without equal opportunity and are having financial problems. It may serve some parents egos to believe that they were actually better than their children, but this will only drive a wedge between them.

Opportunity is tougher during tough times and that is pretty much equal to all. However, you should not make these last three years the period for your judgment. Life is much longer than three or four years. Think how long the Great Depression lasted and people became successes who lived through that era. Remember the glass is nearly full and not empty. :)

These are my opinions as a psychologist/counselor who has (and is still) studying statistics, sociology, social work, political science and of course psychology; they are also my own personal opinions formed using my own experience, the experiences I have observed in others and especially taking into consideration the vast amount of scientific literature regarding these topics.

You are entitled to your opinion. I just hope you don't harm others who have a more positive outlook.
 
Have you not been listening? Simply because one or a few people become a millionaire does not mean that equal opportunity exists. Several people, including myself, have disproved this myth. This is totally backward logic .. in fact .. what is the reasoning behind such an outrageous statement? Please explain, keeping in mind the arguments that have blown this myth out of the water,

How could I ever explain it to you? You will not agree on anything I have to offer. Go forth and tell the world that all is doom and gloom. Is that what psychologists do today? Oh my!
 
I think either LesGovt is trying to be tricky and is using a play on words in order to dupe those who can't really tell the difference or he/she cannot tell the difference him/herself.

You should know by now that I am not trying to be trick or using a play on words. I tell you exactly what I believe and I tell you why. That is why you and others often take offense at what I say and it is because I do not mince words.
 
You should know by now that I am not trying to be trick or using a play on words. I tell you exactly what I believe and I tell you why. That is why you and others often take offense at what I say and it is because I do not mince words.

You assume I take offense when I have not. I was simply referring to the neat, yet flawed, one-liner logic you were using.
 
How could I ever explain it to you? You will not agree on anything I have to offer. Go forth and tell the world that all is doom and gloom. Is that what psychologists do today? Oh my!

I will ignore your petty attempt to evoke an emotional response. Instead, I will point out that there have been several things that we have agreed on ... do you remember this? Please do not generalize your statements regarding me, simply because we are disagreeing on this one issue. :)
 
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