View Poll Results: How To Eliminate Poverty, Re-establish the Middle-Class? Check all you agree with

Voters
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  • Government funded higher education just as other industrialized nations do

    29 35.37%
  • Cut out tax loopholes for the rich to benefit the lower and middle class

    37 45.12%
  • Start disallowing outsourcing to other countries for lower wages

    31 37.80%
  • Institute a flat tax

    34 41.46%
  • Disallow those in poverty to have children

    39 47.56%
  • This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class

    15 18.29%
  • There should always be poverty

    9 10.98%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

  1. #191
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Thank you for detailing your position. Except for the last 9 words of your post I 100% agree. I just asked my wife what percentage of our population matches your description of willful. She said 90%. I say 50%. So there is a big problem. You write “those who WON'T should have to go it alone.”, but I see a problem with this. When they go it alone they cause problems for me. They will be begging on the street like they do in Thailand. Their homes will be in disrepair. They will be driving dangerous cars w/o insurance. If we jail them they will cost me more in taxes to keep them there. We can go on with how having them around will screw things up. So our other choice is to send them away, but on what basis and to where? I still think forcing people to pay SS tax for a minimal retirement and help for some of “those who CAN’T” is a reasonable rational solution. SS does however need to have an account that is not loaned for other purposes. What it is owed can be paid back if we insist. Paying our SS taxes did not get in the way of our acuminating our wealth. If paying SS tax is getting in your way you are not doing things correctly. So, other than having a SS program, how do we get those who WON'T … to go it alone?
    The poor have homes in disrepair? that implies ownership, and the poor don't own homes, they rent. The poor have cars?
    I was raised poor, there was 1 old car that stayed home most of the time, Dad walked or biked to work. Mom didn't work, she might have gotten a job but wouldn't have kept it. Bad dispostion....
    They raised 5 kids of their own then adopted another later on. Our house was 1 bath, 2 bedrooms until Dad added a third bedroom. Mom knew exactly how many items of clothing each of us had and it wasn't much. She had a washing machine, and a clothesline. It was that way til I was 13 and little brother, the youngest, was 10. Dad was 48 when he finally made enough to move us to a nicer area with 3 bedrooms and 1.5 bath, and a 2 car garage, and BRICK exterior! It was their first house that didn't look like it was ready to fall apart. But at the time all this was going on, we didn't know we were poor as most of our neighbors were in the same boat.
    Now poor means not getting all the premium channels....being the last kid in your class to have his own phone and/or ipod.....
    Sorry, the nation can't afford that kind of poor. When the poor have it that kind of standard of living, where is the incentive to become middle class?
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  2. #192
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrickt View Post
    A multimillionaire told me I didn't have enough money to retire. I said I thought I did and he said, "I have a lot more than you do and I don't have enough."

    "How much is enough, Brian?" He stood there a moment with glazed eyes and said, "Well, I'm not sure. But, I know I don't have enough."

    So, folks, for you, how much is enough? A number. What's the number for you? When you think of a number, remember, no matter what, you have to pay your taxes.
    My wife was the last one working. We sat down and calculated what we would need to do what we want, support our relatives and afford enough insurance etc. to retire. We discovered that we already had enough, actually quite a bit. She continued to work, consulting, until she could leave w/o causing them a problem, i.e. she finished the project. So, do we match your perception?

  3. #193
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    My wife was the last one working. We sat down and calculated what we would need to do what we want, support our relatives and afford enough insurance etc. to retire. We discovered that we already had enough, actually quite a bit. She continued to work, consulting, until she could leave w/o causing them a problem, i.e. she finished the project. So, do we match your perception?
    early retirement leads to sleeping late....and we love it. No more alarm clocks!!!
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  4. #194
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrickt View Post
    No, there is no equality of opportunity. Some people are born smart. Some are born stupid. Some are born healthy. Some are born sickly. Some are born handsome. Some are born ugly. No, they don't all have equal opportunity. But unlike what the liberals teach, they sure all have opportunity. I know people who were born millionaires and are broke. I know people who were born broke and are millionaires. I'm no millionaire but when my grandmother said, "Patrick, it's not your fault we're poor but it's sure you fault if you act poorly," she spoke the truth.

    The liberals don't know how to make opportunities but they've learned how to make poor people.
    Such bull. Conservatives would not spend a dime on public education of poor people, and education is the key for most to move out of being poor



    First, no intact family. Lie and tell the girls that the government can be a better partner than that guy. You know, "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." Second, cater to the teachers' unions who pay you a bundle and let the poor kids go to hell. Make sure the leading cause of death for young black males is homicide, tell them constantly they can't get along without the government, and watch the hopelessness rot them. Lastly, make sure everyone lives well beyond their means. Hey, there never is a reckoning.

    The liberals should be proud of themselves. I think it's evil to deny people hope.
    Quite true, which is why conservatism is such a faluire. It failed in Britain in the 1800's, it failed in British controlled Ireland during the Potato famine ( you know where charity would only encourage the poor more. Conservatism and its racism is the reason black people are in jail for drug related offenses at a far higher rate then whites, yet white people do alot of drugs (somebody has to be buying it). It is the convervative war on drugs that is the primary cause for african american families to be spilt apart, it is the conservative war on drugs that is the cause of the high homicide rate of young black males.

    Conservatives love to live beyond their means, look at the conservative admins of Reagan and Bush. Massive debt increases. The Bush admin pushed and advocated taking on debt (along with Alan Greenspan) after 9/11

    Conservatives should be proud,

    They have destroyed the African american family
    They will soon gut the education system, to ensure the poor remain poor
    They want to eliminate social health care to ensure the sick remain sick or in debt for the rest of their lifes

    Conservatives want the poor to remain poor so they can feel good about themselves. So they can smugly sit at home and say they are better then that family down the road. The idea that a poor person is not living in rat infested squalor is appalling to them. It means they are not poor enough, and they cant feel as smug as they want
    Happy Hanukkah Cheerfull Kwanzaa
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  5. #195
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    The poor have homes in disrepair? that implies ownership, and the poor don't own homes, they rent. The poor have cars?
    I was raised poor, there was 1 old car that stayed home most of the time, Dad walked or biked to work. Mom didn't work, she might have gotten a job but wouldn't have kept it. Bad dispostion....
    They raised 5 kids of their own then adopted another later on. Our house was 1 bath, 2 bedrooms until Dad added a third bedroom. Mom knew exactly how many items of clothing each of us had and it wasn't much. She had a washing machine, and a clothesline. It was that way til I was 13 and little brother, the youngest, was 10. Dad was 48 when he finally made enough to move us to a nicer area with 3 bedrooms and 1.5 bath, and a 2 car garage, and BRICK exterior! It was their first house that didn't look like it was ready to fall apart. But at the time all this was going on, we didn't know we were poor as most of our neighbors were in the same boat.
    Now poor means not getting all the premium channels....being the last kid in your class to have his own phone and/or ipod.....
    Sorry, the nation can't afford that kind of poor. When the poor have it that kind of standard of living, where is the incentive to become middle class?
    My wife’s and my family match your experience from the 50’s and early 60’s. Now we have relatives, one 87 one 53 injured and unable to return to work in IT. They live in a house the 87 year old owns, worth about 100k since it needs to be gutted and rebuilt. A beat up 1986 Nissan PU with a hoist for their carts, I just repaired both. And, a 2000 Echo. Essentially no savings, we have given $5,000 about a year ago. They are getting health care, but the 53 year old is not getting enough to get a drug that works well. The Dr.’s are still trying to get him fixed. He’d be much happier working, but our guess it that he’ll be released if he returned since his insurance costs and the legal issues w/ being injured at work. They didn’t save. The 87 year old gets $700 an month for SS, the ‘families’ income. Not poor yet. The 87 year old is considering a reverse mortgage, but that will put the 53 year old on the street if he doesn’t recover in a few years.

  6. #196
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    early retirement leads to sleeping late....and we love it. No more alarm clocks!!!
    Yes! We set our own schedule and we are very busy.

  7. #197
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    My wife’s and my family match your experience from the 50’s and early 60’s. Now we have relatives, one 87 one 53 injured and unable to return to work in IT. They live in a house the 87 year old owns, worth about 100k since it needs to be gutted and rebuilt. A beat up 1986 Nissan PU with a hoist for their carts, I just repaired both. And, a 2000 Echo. Essentially no savings, we have given $5,000 about a year ago. They are getting health care, but the 53 year old is not getting enough to get a drug that works well. The Dr.’s are still trying to get him fixed. He’d be much happier working, but our guess it that he’ll be released if he returned since his insurance costs and the legal issues w/ being injured at work. They didn’t save. The 87 year old gets $700 an month for SS, the ‘families’ income. Not poor yet. The 87 year old is considering a reverse mortgage, but that will put the 53 year old on the street if he doesn’t recover in a few years.
    2 reasons my brother isn't on the street, he inherited the rundown house my dad "built", and the state won't take the house for nonpayment of taxes til he dies or otherwise leaves the place.
    Some of us gamble and win, some gamble and lose, but the preferred method of getting a good retirement has little to do with gambling.
    Oracle of Utah
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  8. #198
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Yes! We set our own schedule and we are very busy.
    I'm guessing the business involves some grandkids...the reason we live in 2 states is 2 sets of grandkids....
    Oracle of Utah
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  9. #199
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Such bull. Conservatives would not spend a dime on public education of poor people, and education is the key for most to move out of being poor

    Quite true, which is why conservatism is such a faluire. It failed in Britain in the 1800's, it failed in British controlled Ireland during the Potato famine ( you know where charity would only encourage the poor more. Conservatism and its racism is the reason black people are in jail for drug related offenses at a far higher rate then whites, yet white people do alot of drugs (somebody has to be buying it). It is the convervative war on drugs that is the primary cause for african american families to be spilt apart, it is the conservative war on drugs that is the cause of the high homicide rate of young black males.

    Conservatives love to live beyond their means, look at the conservative admins of Reagan and Bush. Massive debt increases. The Bush admin pushed and advocated taking on debt (along with Alan Greenspan) after 9/11

    Conservatives should be proud,

    They have destroyed the African american family
    They will soon gut the education system, to ensure the poor remain poor
    They want to eliminate social health care to ensure the sick remain sick or in debt for the rest of their lifes

    Conservatives want the poor to remain poor so they can feel good about themselves. So they can smugly sit at home and say they are better then that family down the road. The idea that a poor person is not living in rat infested squalor is appalling to them. It means they are not poor enough, and they cant feel as smug as they want
    i'm trying to decide if you are deliberately being as stupid as you sound and this is your saddest, worst post ever; or if you are being ironic.
    Last edited by cpwill; 07-31-11 at 07:07 PM.

  10. #200
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i'm trying to decide if you are deliberately being as stupid as you sound and this is your saddest, worst post ever; or if you are being ironic.
    Tammerlain's usually pretty sharp. If he is being anything, I would venture to guess that he is being drunk. But ironic is a good guess too, considering patrick's post.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 07-31-11 at 08:03 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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