View Poll Results: How To Eliminate Poverty, Re-establish the Middle-Class? Check all you agree with

Voters
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  • Government funded higher education just as other industrialized nations do

    29 35.37%
  • Cut out tax loopholes for the rich to benefit the lower and middle class

    37 45.12%
  • Start disallowing outsourcing to other countries for lower wages

    31 37.80%
  • Institute a flat tax

    34 41.46%
  • Disallow those in poverty to have children

    39 47.56%
  • This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class

    15 18.29%
  • There should always be poverty

    9 10.98%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

  1. #171
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    OF people I know and have known over the years, many willfully spend their money on too many trips to fast food stores, cases of beer and wine, cartons of smokes, a cell phone for every member of the family over 12, cable or satellite TV, internet, 2 NEW cars, the latest and greatest flat screen TV, myriad electronic gadgets that they don't need, etc.
    They are consider poor by too many people, but not me. I have no pity for those who spend themselves poor.
    We will never have completely equal opportunity, but we have many options that most qualify for.
    Those who CAN'T, we should help, those who WON'T should have to go it alone.
    I agree, but how does one make those distinctions? Should the DHS worker go to people's houses and count who all has cable and flat screens?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  2. #172
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Ah, beat the odds. Nope. I'm not lucky nor are my children. They are doing the right things.
    No doubt they are .. by the way .. are they among the small group of individuals in the U.S. who own the majority of the country's wealth (i.e. are they multimillionaires or better?)? Probably not, but I could give you the benefit of the doubt. Either way, as I said before it sounds like they are doing things right .. however, they are lucky to have parents who raised them well and they have "beat the odds"; if they are not multimillionaires the odds were still against them, but more in their favor than if they were multimillionaires. I think that if the only people you spend time with are people who have, in your opinion, been successful ... then your data supporting your argument is flawed, i.e. the sample size is too small and you have not sampled any poor or extremely wealthy people. It would take many thousands of people to make a statistically significant argument that cites examples as proof of your argument. As of now, you only have an untested hypothesis. In cases where you have no reliable data, it is always best to speak theoretically rather than bring up sparse examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Not counting the current economic fiasco, times have not gotten worse and I hope you don't think your life is even close to those of the Depression Era. They are not. And, many of the men of that Era had to go fight a long war and then return home and make a success of it and they did. As I said previously, times today are not the best, but they were fine before and they will be again.
    Again, I am not seeing how this is an argument against pushing for equal opportunity as we've defined it. Simply because things were worse at one time does not mean we cannot continue to try to make things better.

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Yes, we do define equal opportunity differently. I did not bring up wealthy as the criteria nor did I really use it as a criteria. I believe that success is being self-sufficient and providing your family with all of their needs and some, if not all, of their wants. No one is guaranteed they will achieve millions and no one should be jealous or envious of those who do achieve it.
    Exactly, no one is guaranteed millions - we never said this is bad. I think this may be another disconnect because I never suggested that people should be "guaranteed" millions. That would be ridiculous .. people do not need millions to live without hardship. Instead, we are saying that people should start off around the same starting line or at least bridge the gap a little so a few do not have such an extremely huge head start.

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Of course you are a progressive.


    Progressive defined: A person advocating or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas Google

    I like new ideas ..don't you? I am sure the new idea that African Americans were not lesser people was a great thing for humanity. As is the case with many reforms .. didn't people believe the earth was flat at one time?

    You know, I don't know about those progressives, their awful unreasonable .. why can't they just stick to the status quo .. no change is good ... LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    I did not say that your glass was half-full. I said it was empty.
    Well that was awful nice of you ... clearly we disagree as I see a glass that has has 50% water and 50% atmosphere in it as being both half full and half empty .. this is the reasonable logical description of what exists .. I do not think any scientist would disagree .. I dunno, perhaps some scientists are not logical in their thinking, maybe it's just me .. who knows

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    I ignore nothing.
    Your extremely selective manner of replying suggests that you actually do ignore things, especially those that are hardest to argue against. You see, when one debates, his or her argument is strengthened .. hey I didn't make up the rules, so don't shoot the messenger

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    I know that equal opportunity exists and that it is up to the individual to make it happen.
    Of course, your version of what equal opportunity should be exists, no one said that it didn't. Additionally, of course making it as far as one can is up to the individual .. I don't think anyone is implying otherwise .. I think you are mistaking making equal starting points as unfair, when in actuality, the individual would still be responsible for succeeding.

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    There is nothing that needs to change
    Wow! I am glad there wasn't too many people with this kind of thinking around when the many helpful reforms were put into place ... the instant we start to become complacent with a system that could improve, we fall behind and miss opportunities to grow

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    People have to know that it is possible and ignore the nabobs of negativity, and practice the virtues that lead to success. It can happen, even if it might not happen for you.
    Very true, as soon as people begin to be negative about positive change, we have failed. Practicing virtues when considering social reform is very important. Adequate social reform may not happen during my lifetime; but it is encouraging to see good social reforms succeeding in other, more progressive countries. It appears we agree on more than you would like ...?

  3. #173
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    I agree, but how does one make those distinctions? Should the DHS worker go to people's houses and count who all has cable and flat screens?
    the census did.

  4. #174
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    I can't help but wonder, are multimillionaires any happier than those who simply don't have to worry about paying the bills?

    Of course, people who can't afford regular meals, can't go off to the mountains for the weekend, can't afford to pay the electric bill, aren't going to be very happy.

    But, do we really need a big screen that is bigger than the brother in law has, a house the size of a Howard Johnson's, in a gated neighborhood, a private plane, a 60 foot yacht? Are people who have those things really happier? It is sounding more and more like "success" means having wealth beyond most people's wildest dreams.
    What's wrong with just being comfortably well off?

    What do we really need?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  5. #175
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the census did.
    Haha.

    But you know - it's not that big of a deal. It's like asking who has a bookshelf or owns a bed. TV's have been around for so long and are so common you can walk into any pawnshop and buy one for CHEAPO - that comes with a remote.

    do you remember remote TVs and how much they usee to cost when they were new? Holy poo - our kid's game tv finally died when I was 25 years old - we bought one at a pawnshop for $15

    They're no longer a top dollar item - and lately I've seen that flat-screens aren't top-dollar, either . . . readily available used as well.
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    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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  6. #176
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I can't help but wonder, are multimillionaires any happier than those who simply don't have to worry about paying the bills?

    Of course, people who can't afford regular meals, can't go off to the mountains for the weekend, can't afford to pay the electric bill, aren't going to be very happy.

    But, do we really need a big screen that is bigger than the brother in law has, a house the size of a Howard Johnson's, in a gated neighborhood, a private plane, a 60 foot yacht? Are people who have those things really happier? It is sounding more and more like "success" means having wealth beyond most people's wildest dreams.
    What's wrong with just being comfortably well off?

    What do we really need?
    my bet would be, no.

    what produces happiness? strong family. looking at achievement. the wealthy are happier? i dunno, are we happier than our ancestors who were poorer?

  7. #177
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I can't help but wonder, are multimillionaires any happier than those who simply don't have to worry about paying the bills?

    Of course, people who can't afford regular meals, can't go off to the mountains for the weekend, can't afford to pay the electric bill, aren't going to be very happy.

    But, do we really need a big screen that is bigger than the brother in law has, a house the size of a Howard Johnson's, in a gated neighborhood, a private plane, a 60 foot yacht? Are people who have those things really happier? It is sounding more and more like "success" means having wealth beyond most people's wildest dreams.
    What's wrong with just being comfortably well off?

    What do we really need?
    One of my parents neighbors about two three years ago blasted away his entire family. This is in the 11th wealthiest city in the nation here a million dollars might buy you a shack.

  8. #178
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Haha.

    But you know - it's not that big of a deal. It's like asking who has a bookshelf or owns a bed. TV's have been around for so long and are so common you can walk into any pawnshop and buy one for CHEAPO - that comes with a remote.

    do you remember remote TVs and how much they usee to cost when they were new? Holy poo - our kid's game tv finally died when I was 25 years old - we bought one at a pawnshop for $15

    They're no longer a top dollar item - and lately I've seen that flat-screens aren't top-dollar, either . . . readily available used as well.
    Yeah, and if it hasn't been mentioned, there's repeated mention of "color" tvs. Haven't seen a black and white tv in YEARS. Even in thrift stores/garage sales, etc.

    All of the "luxuries" listed could be purchased for under $100, total, by a thrifty individual. Cell phones? Seriously? Electricity for appliances, cable, cell phone service, less than a hundred a month. Maybe a bit more in summer for AC.

    RENT is where the lions share goes. 25-30% right off the top. Right down the toilet. Paying the landlords mortgage. A "life tax" if you will, levied by the ownership class on the non-ownership class. (So that's ok)
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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  9. #179
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    OF people I know and have known over the years, many willfully spend their money on too many trips to fast food stores, cases of beer and wine, cartons of smokes, a cell phone for every member of the family over 12, cable or satellite TV, internet, 2 NEW cars, the latest and greatest flat screen TV, myriad electronic gadgets that they don't need, etc.
    They are consider poor by too many people, but not me. I have no pity for those who spend themselves poor.
    We will never have completely equal opportunity, but we have many options that most qualify for.
    Those who CAN'T, we should help, those who WON'T should have to go it alone.
    Thank you for detailing your position. Except for the last 9 words of your post I 100% agree. I just asked my wife what percentage of our population matches your description of willful. She said 90%. I say 50%. So there is a big problem. You write “those who WON'T should have to go it alone.”, but I see a problem with this. When they go it alone they cause problems for me. They will be begging on the street like they do in Thailand. Their homes will be in disrepair. They will be driving dangerous cars w/o insurance. If we jail them they will cost me more in taxes to keep them there. We can go on with how having them around will screw things up. So our other choice is to send them away, but on what basis and to where? I still think forcing people to pay SS tax for a minimal retirement and help for some of “those who CAN’T” is a reasonable rational solution. SS does however need to have an account that is not loaned for other purposes. What it is owed can be paid back if we insist. Paying our SS taxes did not get in the way of our acuminating our wealth. If paying SS tax is getting in your way you are not doing things correctly. So, other than having a SS program, how do we get those who WON'T … to go it alone?

  10. #180
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    my bet would be, no.

    what produces happiness? strong family. looking at achievement. the wealthy are happier? i dunno, are we happier than our ancestors who were poorer?
    Having more money/wealth/assets definitely takes away the stress that money-problems cause in lower-income households. But having too much money can be stressful too I suppose. While I do believe that happiness can be affected by the ownership of material goods, the things truly make an individual happy are the interpersonal relationships he or she has with friends and family (being care for, and caring for, others) and personal achievement and having a sense of purpose in life and success in one's endeavors.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 07-31-11 at 02:16 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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