View Poll Results: How To Eliminate Poverty, Re-establish the Middle-Class? Check all you agree with

Voters
82. You may not vote on this poll
  • Government funded higher education just as other industrialized nations do

    29 35.37%
  • Cut out tax loopholes for the rich to benefit the lower and middle class

    37 45.12%
  • Start disallowing outsourcing to other countries for lower wages

    31 37.80%
  • Institute a flat tax

    34 41.46%
  • Disallow those in poverty to have children

    39 47.56%
  • This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class

    15 18.29%
  • There should always be poverty

    9 10.98%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

  1. #161
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    A fool and his money are soon parted....
    Solution....education
    But it has been demonstrated that education can only go so far..
    My solution is a "better people", ones less likely to steal from the poor.
    I propose "communications reform"
    No more lying, no more small print, forcing advertisers to tell the truth...this includes the politicians.
    So the better educated must have ethics? and not use their education against those with less education? Damn anti-capitalist !!!!
    that was sarcasm, just in case....
    Assuming equal opportunity was achieved, we still have unequal levels of intellect, ambition, etc. People related variables are the hardest to determine.
    I think it is safe to say that in the USA nearly all of us can do well in life, if we want to..... and IF the amount of opportunities match the numbers wanting to take advantage of them.Right now, we have fairly equal, but limited opportunites....
    Gots to have jobs or there is no moving up the food chain...
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  2. #162
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    36 responded with "disallow those in poverty from having children".
    What kind of people do we have here ?
    Tea baggers ?
    you appear to have tea party supporters confused with progressives and members of the Obama Administration.

  3. #163
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    A fool and his money are soon parted....
    Solution....education
    But it has been demonstrated that education can only go so far..
    actually it's been demonstrated that the government sucks at providing education , especially when it does so with a unionized workforce.

    My solution is a "better people", ones less likely to steal from the poor.
    I propose "communications reform"
    No more lying, no more small print, forcing advertisers to tell the truth...this includes the politicians.
    oh yes of course. and then we can press the "no more crime" button and solve that issue as well .

  4. #164
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    According to your definition of what equal opportunity should mean, sure it does.

    According to you it is "Hogwash" and this is simply because you think that a society that tries to near equal opportunity is not one that starts everyone on the same relative line. So why would that be bad again .. starting everyone on the same starting line? Isn't that how they do it in the races? Perhaps you should start a motion to start allowing racing teams with more money to start ahead of all the other cars? What do you think? Would you support that? Why? Or Why not?
    I have no need to propose any measure. The better question would be for you and what equal outcome program do you propose so that everyone is on the same equal result starting line? Do you propose even more coercive transfer of wealth from those who made the most of equal opportunity to give to those who did not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I think you are attempting to call up what is known in psychological jargon as a "self-fulfilling prophecy". There is something very real about such prophecies. However, if one were to fall prey to a self-fulfilling prophecy after realizing that the deck is stacked against them, there would almost certainly be more factors contributing to them not achieving wealth than simply acknowledging that the deck is stacked against them.
    I thought psychologists were to tell people how they can become the best they can be and not to tell them, "Sorry, you are not the son of a lawyer. You cannot succeed in life so just lie down and take a break." I'm beginning to think I may have been mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    The reason for this is simple; many have the ability to see reality,i.e. acknowledge what is good as well as seeing what needs changing, become an advocates for change and still and at the same time do their best to better themselves, these people will have the best effect on society.
    You view telling people that the deck is stacked against them is helpful? Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    This is because they will have bettered themselves, become self-sufficient, enjoyed the positive things in life and become a contributing member of society, while at the same time fighting for more equality. Many successful people see that there is not equality and that is why they lobby against it. Did they fall prey to a self-fulfilling prophecy which says "everyone is doomed"? No they did not, this is because some people can understand that things aren't always black and white. The mature person realizes that most of life is grey and two sided. The strong person, pushes through and fights the bad without putting their head in the sand and takes the time to enjoy the good.
    Yep, saying that you cannot succeed because the deck is stacked against you will cause people to jump with joy and want to better themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    For some, this may be true. Some are happy with the status quo and unwilling to open their eyes. Also some can have a negative outlook and suffer as a result. However, there is another way (thank goodness, lol ) and that is as explained above; the strong person who fights for injustices, betters him/her self and enjoys the positive things in life. Things do not have to be black or white; but it may be easier for people to think that way.
    Unless you go totally socialist, your utopia will never exist, but then your utopia would destroy all motivation to succeed. But, then the lawyer and the ditch digger would be equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I agree with these sentiments; I have been told this and I tell my children this, but I also try not to shield them from reality too much as they will one day have to live in it. However, if they come to see the world as it really is (gray or two-sided, not black and white), there will be a painful process they will have to go through to reconcile new information. I have seen it many times; its what psychologists refer to as a change in world view, i.e. they come to see the world in a different light. Some who run into challenges to their black and white thinking cannot handle it and shut down (put their head in the sand) and others decide to rethink their world view and continually change the way they look at things as new information is retrieved from the world. Change in society usually rests on those who see the world for its good and its bad things. This is not an easy path though. As a wise person once said "ignorance is bliss".
    I am not sure who you think is ignorant, but you have to stand for something or you will fall for anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I am sure they will both do fine. It seems like you have taught them what they need to better themselves. I am sure you will love them even if they do not meet your expectations. From what I can tell so far, you seem like someone who has great intentions and any child should be lucky enough to have a parent who thinks so highly of them and has such faith in them. My parents were the same way with me and my siblings and we have all bettered ourselves significantly. I think the most important ingredient is simply showing our children that we love them by doing the best we can do raise them right and with warm affection and pride.
    "Son, you are not equal to others. You are not the son of a lawyer. You cannot succeed in this life." Isn't this your version of love and affection?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Yes, I have figured out that we are viewing the word equal opportunity in different ways. I think you see now that no one was saying that there should be equal results; we were only saying that we should try to make a push toward equal placement on the starting line. Clearly you do not agree that his should be; I am still waiting for the rationale as to how anything else (other than our version of equal opportunity) would be fair.
    I understand that you want even more wealth transfer.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I noticed that you are stating that you do not want to discuss this anymore (what equal opportunity means and which of our different definitions of it should be what we push for in society). I hope there was nothing that was said that offended you; I know I certainly was not trying to offend you. I can sometimes get a bit witty when debating, but I think that is O.K.
    I have a very thick skin and nothing you can say will offend me. I just try to stay away as much as possible from negativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Finally, there is also the possibility that you do not have a rational explanation for why you do not want people to start at least on similarly place starting lines; I hope this is not the case, as I am interested in the rationale for your steadfast refusal to support a movement to progress into a society that favors equal starting points for all.
    I am not for a totally socialist state.

  5. #165
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    actually it's been demonstrated that the government sucks at providing education , especially when it does so with a unionized workforce.



    oh yes of course. and then we can press the "no more crime" button and solve that issue as well .
    Govt provided education is adequate in most places....crime is low in most places.....
    If you live in one of the high crime poor education places, move to a better place as soon as you can....

    Povery will never be eliminated, too many people willfully choose to be poor.
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  6. #166
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    OK, so I've been gone a while, and got a little behind on this thread. Skimming some of the posts, reading here and there, it appears that there are some people arguing that we actually have equality of opportunity.

    The kid who grew up without a dad, mom on welfare, in the middle of gang territory, has the same opportunity as the one who grew up in a nuclear family with adequate resources to provide food, shelter, education, medical care, perhaps a little entertainment and some travel.

    Surely, no one is arguing such a thing, are they?

    I must be mistaken.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    ....
    Povery will never be eliminated, too many people willfully choose to be poor.
    By willful do you mean obstinate or intentional? And, what % of the poor do you think are willful? thx

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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    ... it appears that there are some people arguing that we actually have equality of opportunity.
    Surely, no one is arguing such a thing, are they?...
    Not me................

  9. #169
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    OK, so I've been gone a while, and got a little behind on this thread. Skimming some of the posts, reading here and there, it appears that there are some people arguing that we actually have equality of opportunity.

    The kid who grew up without a dad, mom on welfare, in the middle of gang territory, has the same opportunity as the one who grew up in a nuclear family with adequate resources to provide food, shelter, education, medical care, perhaps a little entertainment and some travel.

    Surely, no one is arguing such a thing, are they?

    I must be mistaken.
    No, unfortunately, you are not mistaken.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  10. #170
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    By willful do you mean obstinate or intentional? And, what % of the poor do you think are willful? thx

    OF people I know and have known over the years, many willfully spend their money on too many trips to fast food stores, cases of beer and wine, cartons of smokes, a cell phone for every member of the family over 12, cable or satellite TV, internet, 2 NEW cars, the latest and greatest flat screen TV, myriad electronic gadgets that they don't need, etc.
    They are consider poor by too many people, but not me. I have no pity for those who spend themselves poor.
    We will never have completely equal opportunity, but we have many options that most qualify for.
    Those who CAN'T, we should help, those who WON'T should have to go it alone.
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

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