View Poll Results: How To Eliminate Poverty, Re-establish the Middle-Class? Check all you agree with

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  • Government funded higher education just as other industrialized nations do

    29 35.37%
  • Cut out tax loopholes for the rich to benefit the lower and middle class

    37 45.12%
  • Start disallowing outsourcing to other countries for lower wages

    31 37.80%
  • Institute a flat tax

    34 41.46%
  • Disallow those in poverty to have children

    39 47.56%
  • This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class

    15 18.29%
  • There should always be poverty

    9 10.98%
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Thread: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

  1. #131
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Equal opportunity doesn't exist, not in the real world

    If truly equal opportunity were indeed to exist, "equal results" would also have to be pursued to some degree. For equal opportunity to exist, everyone would need to be born into the same station in life. Same quality parents, same quality schools, same quality job opportunities, etc. That simply doesn't happen in the real world, unless you make everyone and their parents the same.
    Oh, but it does exist in the real world. A poor person can become a millionaire and a millionaire can become poor. That simply happens in the real world.

  2. #132
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    Equal opportunity means a race where everyone starts at the starting line. It doesn't mean a race where some people get a 50 meter head start and other people have a ball and chain attached to their ankle. Sure, it's still possible for the ball and chain guy to win, but claiming there's equal opportunity and all he has to do is work a little harder is just being disingenuous.
    Yet another person who does not understand equal opportunity. It exists. If you persist in saying that it does not, please keep the discussion only to those who cannot deal with achieving success... certain liberals. We conservatives know better and believe that such talk is extremely self-fulfilling.

  3. #133
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Oh, but it does exist in the real world. A poor person can become a millionaire and a millionaire can become poor. That simply happens in the real world.
    That's not what equal opportunity means. Equal opportunity means everyone has the same opportunities.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    That's not what equal opportunity means. Equal opportunity means everyone has the same opportunities.
    I'm sorry you disagree. My definition has been the same for 66 years and I went from a one room living quarters in an old machine shed, with tin roof, no bathtub or shower, pot-bellied coal stove, concrete floors, tar paper shingles, to living in an area with our own country club. Please do not tell me what equal opportunity means. I have lived it. If you are living in a one room living area with the fine amenities we had, I suggest you develop some positive virtues of hard work, personal responsibility, self-discipline, tenacity, frugality, and the rest and make it happen. It's there, but you cannot sit around and just piss and moan. That is self-defeating.

    If I may be so bold, I suggest that you go to the library and get a book or two or three on developing a PMA, Positive Mental Attitude. "What the mind can see and believe, it can achieve." Never were truer words written. I did not say this with sarcasm. I mean every word of this. I have recommended the same for my children and I will be recommending it to my grandchildren. Attitude is a huge part of the battle.
    Last edited by LesGovt; 07-30-11 at 07:50 PM.

  5. #135
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Oh, but it does exist in the real world. A poor person can become a millionaire and a millionaire can become poor. That simply happens in the real world.
    Yes, but those two situations are not common. We are speaking in general terms, not the unusual.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  6. #136
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Well, there you go again. Equal opportunity exists. Equal results does not. Thank goodness!! Anyone with a sound mind and body can make it in America. It takes utilizing virtues and not vices. It takes hard work, getting educated (not necessarily a degree), self-discipline, personal responsibility, tenacity, frugality, and the rest. That does not mean everyone becomes "wealthy." Making it should be simply being self-sufficient.
    There you go again! Deciding that by equal opportunity I mean "equal results"; a very silly assumption especially since I have not suggested anything of the sort. I think it is insulting that you would assume that when I say equal opportunity, what I really mean is "equal results". Do we need to have a little breakdown of what the terms mean? Do you think equal opportunity means equal results? Because if I remember correctly, I used the term equal opportunity (did I not?).

    And yes, it is good that we do not have equal results; I am able to look past your insult to see that we both agree that there should not be equal results.

    Also I could not agree more that those are important virtues. Wow we agree on more than you are trying to make it appear .. don't we

    Perhaps you should stop trying to drive a wedge between us and focus on what we agree on instead of putting words in my mouth ... I think what I wrote is quite clear:

    I.E. .... we are far from a point where everyone has equal opportunity as we do not start off with the same levels.

    As you may be able to deduce .. it is still possible (in fact very possible) for people to start a race at the same line and end up with very different finishing times. Thus, one can have equal opportunity without equal results.

    However, if a runner (or runners) gets a head start, the likely hood that those without that head start are able to catch up with those with the head start, decreases. You see, a select few individuals will be very, very fast and they will be able to catch up .. however, some (who do not have a head start) will be just as fast as those who have a head start, however, they will still fail to catch up; indeed, they will be behind those with the head start. So, as we can see, simply because one racer was able to catch up despite his/her disadvantage, is not necessarily a sign of equal opportunity. In fact, statistically speaking, fewer people making it to the top (i.e. the very wealthy) and a whole lot of people being stuck in the lower classes, without much of a middle class to speak of, is actually a sign of a lack of equal opportunity (not the other way around ... this is deduced using simple statistics).

    Sadly, our current situation is that we have the largest gap between the economic classes that we have seen in a long time. Sorry to burst your bubble .. it's just called getting one's head out of the sand and embracing reality, instead of acting and believing that everything is honky-dory. You see, its much more painful to deal with reality and requires an amount of work that some people aren't willing to face, as they may risk feelings of guilt ... the great thing is, its never to late to redeem one's self. What's more scary, is those who are not willing to accept that they were ever wrong; I have little respect for people who aren't willing to admit that they are or were wrong or have been mislead or misinformed about something, as this is called being human. It is my belief that no human has never made a mistake .. period.

    Thanks for listening

  7. #137
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    A better question should be should an American consumer buy an American product when they can buy foriegn products?
    a consumer has a duty to maximize his own utility. some stuff you have to buy foreign sometimes the quality and cost is equal and in that case I buy american. sometimes the american stuff of equal quality is far more expensive, then I buy Foreign



  8. #138
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    True, BUT.....
    How about if the lawyer kicks his kids to the curb as soon as they turn 18? and the construction worker saves and encourages his kids to go to college?
    In my family, we were all equally treated, once we turned 18 we were told to get out.
    Long term for us, 2 have done well and retired well, 1 is OK, 2 are very poor. Same parents, same schools....
    Ability and ambition are the major factors.
    Success has different levels..different interpretations.
    The level of success that SHOULD be a minimum standard is that of being more of contributor to society than a drain on society.
    Now that you've brought up your family .. I remember you saying that you started working when the economy was better .. so what year did you get "kicked to the curb"?

    By the way .. I don't think anyone is arguing that different people do not have different talents and abilities .. I think we are simply arguing that if some people have a financial and or educational head start in life, it is more likely that they will do better financially. Granted a select few, statistically insignificant, number of individuals will become very wealthy without a head start, but most will not.

    So I am not disagreeing with your proposition that different people have different abilities .. instead .. what I mean (and I believe this is what most other people believe as well) is that equal opportunity means no one gets a head start, no one gets to start 100 yards down the track .. everyone starts at the same position. I hope I am making myself clear.

    Additionally, equal opportunity does not mean that many will be born with nothing and endure severe hardship only to barely support themselves while being a contributor to society. Rather, it means that each will be born with an equal probability of acauiring any amount of economic standing. Whether or not they reach different levels should depend on their abilities (as you have pointed out), rather than what economic situation they were born into.
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 07-31-11 at 01:05 AM.

  9. #139
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Does a low income person have the same opportunity to succeed as a millionaire? It depends on how one defines success, but the results cannot be completely separated from opportunity; otherwise, how does one measure equal opportunity?
    I think either LesGovt is trying to be tricky and is using a play on words in order to dupe those who can't really tell the difference or he/she cannot tell the difference him/herself.

    As any statistician will tell you, with the vast number of individuals we have in the U.S., after controlling for certain variables, such as charisma, intelligence, skill etc., there should be approximately the same number of wealthy individuals from a group of people born into poverty with these traits, as there are from a group of people born into wealth, if there is a system of true equal opportunity.

    One confabulatory variable with such studies is the fact that those born into poverty often do not get the proper nutrition needed for full development. Additionally, those born into poverty may not get as much needed time spent with their parents as their parents may be working more, suffering from situational depression (depression brought on by an inability to better themselves, from a lack of opportunity to have non-menial jobs (activities that stimulate the brain to a higher degree have been shown to decrease depression), chronic debt, being emotionally abused by supervisors/bosses) or continually fighting over finances with their spouse or significant other. These variables play a significant role in the physical and psychological well-being and development of children. So, those born into poverty are, in this sense, more affected by the consequences of not having good, high paying jobs, than simply not having money.

    According to Maslow (a psychologist, researcher and theorist), having food and shelter are only the lowest level of many human needs. Therefore, one can imagine how stressful it must be for those worrying an a day-to-day and week-to-week basis about how and where their family will get the money to pay for food and shelter. A very few select families will be able to handle this kind of stress and raise children who have managed to get most of the nutrition and supportive environment needed to be able to attain generational upward class movement. An even fewer amount will beat the odds and rear children who will actually become very wealthy.

  10. #140
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Equal opportunity doesn't exist, not in the real world

    If truly equal opportunity were indeed to exist, "equal results" would also have to be pursued to some degree. For equal opportunity to exist, everyone would need to be born into the same station in life. Same quality parents, same quality schools, same quality job opportunities, etc. That simply doesn't happen in the real world, unless you make everyone and their parents the same.
    Absolutely true, no ideal situation can ever be reached .. however, this does not mean we cannot move closer to that ideal situation.

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