View Poll Results: How To Eliminate Poverty, Re-establish the Middle-Class? Check all you agree with

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  • Government funded higher education just as other industrialized nations do

    29 35.37%
  • Cut out tax loopholes for the rich to benefit the lower and middle class

    37 45.12%
  • Start disallowing outsourcing to other countries for lower wages

    31 37.80%
  • Institute a flat tax

    34 41.46%
  • Disallow those in poverty to have children

    39 47.56%
  • This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class

    15 18.29%
  • There should always be poverty

    9 10.98%
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Thread: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

  1. #121
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    So this is what the rich believe is a living wage eh? Pitiful, just pitiful!
    $300 an hour would be better, wouldn't it?

  2. #122
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Both have equal opportunity to succeed. Your example would mean that you believe in equal results first so that your version of equal opportunity would exist. This is not how anyone ever believed equal opportunity existed. This is only the liberal, progressive distorted view of things.
    Right-so what is your definition of equal opportunity? because mine is that people have an equal chance to move up the "food chain." It doesn't entail complete equality, because that, too, is impossible.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  3. #123
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Equal opportunity doesn't exist anywhere because it is contingent upon people having the same opportunity to succeed. And they don't. Especially not here. In fact, moving up the economic latter is easier in certain European countries.

    Who has a better chance at success: the son of a lawyer or the son of a under employed construction worker?
    True, BUT.....
    How about if the lawyer kicks his kids to the curb as soon as they turn 18? and the construction worker saves and encourages his kids to go to college?
    In my family, we were all equally treated, once we turned 18 we were told to get out.
    Long term for us, 2 have done well and retired well, 1 is OK, 2 are very poor. Same parents, same schools....
    Ability and ambition are the major factors.
    Success has different levels..different interpretations.
    The level of success that SHOULD be a minimum standard is that of being more of contributor to society than a drain on society.
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  4. #124
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Right-so what is your definition of equal opportunity? because mine is that people have an equal chance to move up the "food chain." It doesn't entail complete equality, because that, too, is impossible.
    Equal opportunity means that a person can succeed if they put forth the effort and follow a path of virtues and not vices. It doesn't mean everyone will succeed, but only that they have the opportunity to do so. There are plenty of stories of people who have succeeded in spite of their immediate environment.

  5. #125
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    True, BUT.....
    How about if the lawyer kicks his kids to the curb as soon as they turn 18? and the construction worker saves and encourages his kids to go to college?
    In my family, we were all equally treated, once we turned 18 we were told to get out.
    Long term for us, 2 have done well and retired well, 1 is OK, 2 are very poor. Same parents, same schools....
    Ability and ambition are the major factors.
    Success has different levels..different interpretations.
    The level of success that SHOULD be a minimum standard is that of being more of contributor to society than a drain on society.
    Success is due to a combination of ability, drive to succeed, and luck. Some can make it with almost nothing, some have everything handed to them and still can't make it. But on average, the position one is born into in this society plays a larger role. If someone grows up in a family that doesn't teach responsibility, that person isn't likely to succeed regardless of other factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Equal opportunity means that a person can succeed if they put forth the effort and follow a path of virtues and not vices. It doesn't mean everyone will succeed, but only that they have the opportunity to do so. There are plenty of stories of people who have succeeded in spite of their immediate environment.
    Sure there are, but if one generalizes, their placement on the food chain at birth is the largest determinant of success.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  6. #126
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Success is due to a combination of ability, drive to succeed, and luck. Some can make it with almost nothing, some have everything handed to them and still can't make it. But on average, the position one is born into in this society plays a larger role. If someone grows up in a family that doesn't teach responsibility, that person isn't likely to succeed regardless of other factors.

    Sure there are, but if one generalizes, their placement on the food chain at birth is the largest determinant of success.
    Again, you keep looking at results and not opportunity. Equal results is quite different from equal opportunity.

  7. #127
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Again, you keep looking at results and not opportunity. Equal results is quite different from equal opportunity.
    Does a low income person have the same opportunity to succeed as a millionaire? It depends on how one defines success, but the results cannot be completely separated from opportunity; otherwise, how does one measure equal opportunity?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  8. #128
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Again, you keep looking at results and not opportunity. Equal results is quite different from equal opportunity.
    Equal opportunity doesn't exist, not in the real world

    If truly equal opportunity were indeed to exist, "equal results" would also have to be pursued to some degree. For equal opportunity to exist, everyone would need to be born into the same station in life. Same quality parents, same quality schools, same quality job opportunities, etc. That simply doesn't happen in the real world, unless you make everyone and their parents the same.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 07-30-11 at 04:43 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Equal opportunity means that a person can succeed if they put forth the effort and follow a path of virtues and not vices. It doesn't mean everyone will succeed, but only that they have the opportunity to do so. There are plenty of stories of people who have succeeded in spite of their immediate environment.
    Equal opportunity means a race where everyone starts at the starting line. It doesn't mean a race where some people get a 50 meter head start and other people have a ball and chain attached to their ankle. Sure, it's still possible for the ball and chain guy to win, but claiming there's equal opportunity and all he has to do is work a little harder is just being disingenuous.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
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  10. #130
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    Re: Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Does a low income person have the same opportunity to succeed as a millionaire? It depends on how one defines success, but the results cannot be completely separated from opportunity; otherwise, how does one measure equal opportunity?
    A low income person can become a billionaire; therefore, he or she has equal opportunity.

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