View Poll Results: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

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  • Yes

    52 67.53%
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    25 32.47%
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Thread: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

  1. #71
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that when an individual sells stock that they have held, say for 2 years, they pay regular income taxes on the profits? Like, 30% or whatever? Because that is most definitely incorrect. They pay long term capital gains taxes only and those cap out at 15%.
    No, doofus.

    Or are you just saying that you would call the capital gains tax an "income tax", so you assume that it is included in the chart? If that's what you're saying, you could be right, but I doubt it. Usually the government breaks down capital gains, corporate income taxes, estate taxes and income taxes as four separate categories of taxes. That's why, for example, when politicians talk about raising or cutting "income taxes" that has no effect on capital gains taxes.
    Exactly.

    What politicians say is not what the tax code says. Capitals gains taxation is a federal income tax. The classification of the income being taxed is one thing, but it's still an income tax. The character of the income is different, and hence the rate is different...but it's an income tax. When any credible federal source says "this accounts for income, sales, and excise taxes" that's what they mean.

    But, who knows, maybe for the purposes of that chart they lumped some of that stuff together to make it more readable or something. If you think that is the case, by all means, lets see a source confirming that.
    Publication 17 (2010), Your Federal Income Tax

    See that part under "Your Federal Income Tax" that says CAPITAL GAINS?...

    That top 1% owns 43% of all the wealth in the country. To argue that we shouldn't even bother figuring out if they are paying a reasonable share of the taxes strikes me as totally absurd. That is perhaps the most important political issue out there right now- they aren't paying anywhere near their fair share. They're getting MASSIVE tax breaks and cheating on their taxes and exploiting loopholes and it is costing us hundreds of billions of dollars a year. We can't afford to keep floating them that extra cheese.
    Who argued that we shouldn't figure out if THEY are paying a reasonable share? Did I argue that? Show me where.

    My point was that THEIR taxes are not a sign of what "rich people" are paying. They are not even a sign of what the top 20% in this country are paying. Their tax rate is NOT a sign of what is happening to the middle and upper classes at large. The sheer volume of their money makes it very easy for them to hide their earnings. Should they pay more? Yes. But that's a matter of complicity, not "EVERYONE NEEDS TO GIVE YOUR FAIR SHARE." That's why the Bush Tax Cuts need to expire, and certain loopholes need to be closed.

    And by the way...the top 1% that owns 43% of all the wealth in the country? They paid 40% of all income taxes in the nation in 2007, and that number has gotten higher in years since. Is it as much as a poorer man relative to their income? No. But they pay it.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 07-20-11 at 06:04 PM.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, posters on the right make this accusation all the time. They often try to paint it as though liberals are poor people who hate the rich and want to take their money from them for themselves.

    Obviously it is ridiculous. What policy people think is the most sensible isn't necessarily a function of their own self interest. I have worked as a dishwasher and bus boy in a small town and as the director of a department in a software company in silicon valley, but I've supported the same tax policy throughout.

    As far as the notion that it is about hating rich people, that is just as silly. It isn't like paying fair taxes would hurt the wealthy. It wouldn't have much any impact on them at all. Certainly much less of an impact than taxes have on middle class people. Besides, the wealthy currently pay much LOWER tax rates than the rest of us, so even if it did hurt them, it would just be them taking on the same sort of pain the rest of us have to accept.

    Instead of hate for the rich it is about love for the country as a whole. Our current tax scheme where the rich pay such absurdly low tax rates compared to everybody else is bad for the country. It hurts many, many, people. We have had to cut our safety back to smaller than what any other first world country has, but we're still running a huge deficits. We're getting screwed on both ends- we aren't getting as much back from government as people in other countries do, but we're taking on more debt than people on other countries have to to pay for it. Anybody who cares about the well being of the country as a whole should oppose that, right? Well, the solution is to fix the inexplicable special tax breaks the uberwealthy get.
    Excellent post Tea! As usual you get right to the heart of the matter!
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  3. #73
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    What politicians say is not what the tax code says. Capitals gains taxation is a federal income tax. The classification of the income being taxed is one thing, but it's still an income tax. The character of the income is different, and hence the rate is different...but it's an income tax. When any credible federal source says "income tax" that's what they mean.

    Publication 17 (2010), Your Federal Income Tax

    See that part under "Your Federal Income Tax" that says CAPITAL GAINS?...
    Ah, I think I get the confusion. Actual income taxes- the thing that caps out at 35%- DO include short term capital gains. If you buy stock and sell it in less than a year, your profits are treated as income. But, if you hold it longer than a year, then it is NOT reported as income. It falls under the long term capital gains tax instead, which caps out at 15%. Short term capital gains, being counted as regular income, is very possibly included in that chart, but long term capital gains would not be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Who argued that we shouldn't figure out if THEY are paying a reasonable share? Did I argue that? Show me where.

    My point was that THEIR taxes are not a sign of what "rich people" are paying. They are not even a sign of what the top 20% in this country are paying. My whole point was that their tax rate is NOT a sign of what is happening to the middle and upper classes at large. The sheer volume of their money makes it very easy for them to hide their earnings. Should they pay more? Yes. But that's a matter of complicity, not "EVERYONE NEEDS TO GIVE YOUR FAIR SHARE." That's why the Bush Tax Cuts need to expire, and certain loopholes need to be closed.
    As long as you agree we need to raise the taxes of the rich and close out loopholes, we're all good, but the way you're framing things is confusing to me. The middle class is like from the 20th percentile to the 98th or something like that. The upper middle class is lets say from the 85th percentile to the 98th or something like that. We are saying that the rich do not pay their fair share, which I would take to mean the people in the top 1%, or maybe the top 0.5%. So I don't think anybody was claiming that the middle class isn't paying their fair share. They're paying the most of anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    And by the way...the top 1% that owns 43% of all the wealth in the country? They paid 40% of all income taxes in the nation in 2007.
    Well, those aren't parallel numbers. They have 43% of the wealth, not 43% of the income. Their share of the income is a bit lower. But, that is the one progressive tax- income taxes. If you include all taxes- property, sales, etc- then they pay a much smaller portion.

  4. #74
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    what do you consider to be the fair share of a group that makes 22% of the income yet pays 40% of the income tax and all the death tax? Is there any other group that has such a high differential between their share of the income vs their share of the income tax burden? TO say the middle class is paying the most is not accurate unless you use a rather liquid definition of middle class and per capita the top one percent are paying far far more than any other group



  5. #75
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    BTW why is the only basis for tax based on "the from each according to their ability" rather than use? or value received? no other transaction in life is based on the system the left seems to think is the only factor that matters



  6. #76
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what do you consider to be the fair share of a group that makes 22% of the income yet pays 40% of the income tax and all the death tax? Is there any other group that has such a high differential between their share of the income vs their share of the income tax burden? TO say the middle class is paying the most is not accurate unless you use a rather liquid definition of middle class and per capita the top one percent are paying far far more than any other group
    No, you're just looking at income taxes. Those are progressive. The rest are regressive- sales, property, FICA, vehicle registration, unemployment insurance, disability, etc. When you total everything up- all sources of income vs all taxes- the top 1% pays a significantly lower percentage of their income in taxes than the middle class does.

  7. #77
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    BTW why is the only basis for tax based on "the from each according to their ability" rather than use? or value received? no other transaction in life is based on the system the left seems to think is the only factor that matters
    Your definition of "use" ignores a large number of real economic factors, such as government-enforced tort-liability shields. Use of government services is not a simple question of dollars spent, but also personal assets that would otherwise have been available to satisfy business debts that have been preserved by government coercion of the creditors who hold (or could have held in the case of tort judgments) those debts.

  8. #78
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, you're just looking at income taxes. Those are progressive. The rest are regressive- sales, property, FICA, vehicle registration, unemployment insurance, disability, etc. When you total everything up- all sources of income vs all taxes- the top 1% pays a significantly lower percentage of their income in taxes than the middle class does.
    that again is not true. Catawba posted an article from the NYT that noted those in the top one percent (the vast majority who made between a million and five million a year) paid the highest effective income tax rates and Oldreliable67 posted evidence that the top one percent had the highest overall federal (all federal) tax rates.

    what is wrong with regressive? especially since the rich pay far more ACTUAL tax dollars. Life is regressive. Do you believe in FROM EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY



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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Your definition of "use" ignores a large number of real economic factors, such as government-enforced tort-liability shields. Use of government services is not a simple question of dollars spent, but also personal assets that would otherwise have been available to satisfy business debts that have been preserved by government coercion of the creditors who hold (or could have held in the case of tort judgments) those debts.
    Feel free to show how that directly benefits the rich in actual dollars

    I think that is a made up claim trying to substitute for actual proof



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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    I responded with a yes, but, again I say but, to what degree of envy and hatred??
    Has this question ever been on a national poll ?
    As to the taxes, yes, these should be fair/balanced.
    Right now, I do not know...there are so many loopholes, some are justified, some are not.
    Our nation may need reform in this area....note the may....
    I probably am envious of the rich, to an extent.

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