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Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 33.3%
  • No

    Votes: 24 66.7%

  • Total voters
    36
What kind of parasite wants the government to step in and force their third party creditors not to collect on their debts?

TurtleDude, I will take your lack of response to this question as an admission that only a parasite would advocate for the government handouts that is the corporate tort-liability shield.

It has been a pleasure besting you in debate. As always.
 
TurtleDude, I will take your lack of response to this question as an admission that only a parasite would advocate for the government handouts that is the corporate tort-liability shield.

It has been a pleasure besting you in debate. As always.


awarding your self another medal? you have not bested me because your premises are false.

the corporation acted and its the corporation that gets sued. if there were no LLC's there would be no one delivering high risk babies, doing high risk surgery or there would be no government because government is the biggest limited liability corporation known to man. Do you know anything about the federal tort claims act and the concept of sovereign immunity?
 
the corporation acted and its the corporation that gets sued.
A corporation is just a business, it is a collection of people. If the partners in a partnership should be liable, why not the partners in a corporation? There is no libertarian explanation for this sort of preferential treatment from government. It's a protection racket.

if there were no LLC's there would be no one delivering high risk babies, doing high risk surgery or there would be no government because government is the biggest limited liability corporation known to man.

Cry me a river. You sound like a pinko, the way you are making excuses for government infringement in the free market.

And just like I'd tell any other socialist, I'll tell you. Stop worrying so much, the free market will provide. High risk surgery and high risk deliveries might cost a little more, but they will get done. New methods that do not infringe on liberty will be adapted.

If your best argument is a pathetic, ends-justify-the-means socialism, you've already lost.

Do you know anything about the federal tort claims act and the concept of sovereign immunity?

Yes, I know they have nothing to do with the topic at hand. We're not talking about sovereign tort immunity, that's a separate issue. We're talking about government-enforced limited tort-liability for private companies. No red herrings.
 
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A corporation is just a business, it is a collection of people. If the partners in a partnership should be liable, why not the partners in a corporation? There is no libertarian explanation for this sort of preferential treatment from government. It's a protection racket.



Cry me a river. You sound like a pinko, the way you are making excuses for government infringement in the free market.

And just like I'd tell any other socialist, I'll tell you. Stop worrying so much, the free market will provide. High risk surgery and high risk deliveries might cost a little more, but they will get done. New methods that do not infringe on liberty will be adapted.

If you best argument is a pathetic, ends-justify-the-means socialism, you've already lost.



Yes, I know they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Anti corporate populism is doing the crying not me. You just are mad at corporations and you fail to understand the entire framework of risk and tort law and yes a government entity is a corporation and it has very limited liability
 
Anti corporate populism is doing the crying not me. You just are mad at corporations and you fail to understand the entire framework of risk and tort law and yes a government entity is a corporation and it has very limited liability


appeal to emotion fallacy.

Where in the world do you get the idea he is mad at corps?
 
appeal to emotion fallacy.

Where in the world do you get the idea he is mad at corps?

his emotional attacks on corporations

real libertarians believe in personal responsibility. If you are president of a company and you order someone to harm another you will be both civilly and criminally liable. if someone does that without your knowledge why should your PERSONAL property be subject to suit
 
Anti corporate populism is doing the crying not me.

Straw man. This is far from anti-corporate populism, it's a libertarian critique of government infringement in the free market.

You just are mad at corporations and you fail to understand the entire framework of risk and tort law and yes a government entity is a corporation and it has very limited liability

I understand the framework perfectly, and you have been unable to contradict me on a single substantive point of law.

yes a government entity is a corporation and it has very limited liability

Sovereign tort immunity is a separate principle from corporate tort-liability shields. It is confusing, and I can see how somebody unschooled in the law would fail to fathom the subtle nuance here. This nuance clearly escapes you. Since your understanding of the law here is so incomplete, allow me to educate you.

Corporate limited liability is described as follows:
“shareholders are immune from personal liability for corporate debts and torts beyond the amount of their agreed investments in the corporation’s stock.”
1 COX & HAZEN Sec. 105

This is quite different from sovereign tort immunity. See: Gray III v. Bell for a discussion of sovereign immunity:

State and federal officials receive a judicially fashioned immunity for all discretionary acts arguably within the ambit of their authority. There are two basic forms of official immunity. The first, absolute [229 U.S.App.D.C. 182] immunity, bars a suit at the outset and frees the defendant official of any obligation to justify his actions. The second, qualified immunity,8 is in the nature of an affirmative defense and protects an official from liability only if he can show that his actions did not contravene clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person in his position should have known. The levels of protection afforded by these two forms of immunity, once sharply different, are no longer so distinct. Qualified immunity remains an "affirmative defense that must be pleaded by a defendant official," Harlow v. Fitzgerald, --- U.S. ----, 102 S.Ct. 2727, 2737, 73 L.Ed.2d 396 (1982), but subjective motivation is no longer relevant and the defense--now "defin[ed] ... essentially in objective terms," id., 102 S.Ct. at 2739--may appropriately be determined by the trial judge on summary judgment, id. On the other hand, under the functional analysis governing absolute immunity, see Butz v. Economou, 438 U.S. 478, 508-17, 98 S.Ct. 2894, 2911-16, 57 L.Ed.2d 895 (1978), "a limited factual inquiry may in some cases be necessary to determine in what role the challenged function was exercised," Forsyth v. Kleindienst, 599 F.2d 1203, 1215 (3d Cir.1979), cert. denied, 453 U.S. 913, 101 S.Ct. 3147, 69 L.Ed.2d 997 (1981), thus precluding on occasion disposition at the Rule 12 stage.

16
Official immunity is principally justified as a "shield against liability that will serve the public interest in the vigorous exercise of legitimate executive authority." Chagnon v. Bell, 642 F.2d 1248, 1256 (D.C.Cir.1980), cert. denied, 453 U.S. 911, 101 S.Ct. 3142, 69 L.Ed.2d 994 (1981).9 Additional reasons for according official immunity, less frequently articulated but no less important, include the need to minimize the deterrent effect of potential personal liability on those who otherwise might enter public office, the perceived drain on valuable official time devoted to defense of myriad suits, the inequity of exposing officials to vicarious liability for the acts of subordinates, the notion that government servants owe a duty to the public rather than to the individual, and the idea that official accountability is more appropriately enforced through the ballot and in criminal or removal [229 U.S.App.D.C. 183] proceedings than in private civil suits.10
712 F2d 490 Gray III v. Bell | OpenJurist

Now that you have been educated, TD, I will permit no more digressions into the comparison of sovereign tort immunity and corporate tort-liability shields. The two are not related, and I have proven it. The red herring is dispensed with.
 
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Many people have their priorities wrong. That is the problem in this country.

Right, as long as you have a trash bag to rest your head on and a bridge somewhere to sleep under, who could ask for anything more! :sun
 
LOL that is funny but since your premise is wrong its a house built on a foundation of quicksand

(replying to GI's long winded spew)
 
Right, as long as you have a trash bag to rest your head on and a bridge somewhere to sleep under, who could ask for anything more! :sun

No doubt you've taken one of these into your own home, right?
 
Right, as long as you have a trash bag to rest your head on and a bridge somewhere to sleep under, who could ask for anything more! :sun

Is that how you envision the "poor repressed middle class" as living? Even a majority of people living in poverty don't live like this.
 
real libertarians believe in personal responsibility.

Indeed, this is all about personal responsibility. You're the one who is advocating that the government alleviate shareholders of their personal responsibility, at the expense of the victims of their torts.

If you are president of a company and you order someone to harm another you will be both civilly and criminally liable. if someone does that without your knowledge why should your PERSONAL property be subject to suit

You are misdirecting the issue. It is about legal obligations. The members of a corporation can, thanks to a government-backed tort-liability shield, escape liability in circumstances where the members of a family, the members of a partnership, and even the members of a church picnic could not. Same circumstances, only difference is a corporation has a protection racket agreement with the government, while the latter three groups do not.

This is not about tort reform. All I am saying is that all groups of businesspeople should be held to the same standard of liability, be they an unincorporated partnership or a corporation. That's the libertarian way, the enshrinement of personal responsibility.

It's parasites like you TD, who want to escape honestly owed debts, that are the problem.
 
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LOL that is funny but since your premise is wrong its a house built on a foundation of quicksand

(replying to GI's long winded spew)

The only thing long in that post was a Federal Appeals Court opinion that directly debunked you.
 
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a citizen buys 1000 dollars worth of acme inc's stock

someone driving a truck for acme inc swerves to miss a thrown tire or a dodging deer and kills a person in an oncoming car. the estate sues acme inc and say the verdict is a million dollar above acme's insurance

under current laws, the judgment has to be satisfied only with the assets of acme and that means the stockholder's investments could be toast.

guy thinks that the estate should be able to sue the citizen personally and collect against his property in addition to the limit of his investments. that is idiotic in my opinion since there is no negligence or blame or intent on the part of the stockholder
 
The only thing long in that post was a Federal Appeals Court opinion that directly debunked you.

No it didn't

sovereign immunity is a method by those who run a corporate entity and municipal and state governments are corporations. using your "logic" the mayor of LA should be personally liable for the cops beating up Rodney King
 
The government disagrees with you.

effective-tax-rate-top-400-families1.jpg


Closing loopholes and having them pay a bit more? All for it.

But let's not get carried away.

To be fair, you'd probably see those lines intersect at some point if the data had been up-to-date. But I agree that you can only conclude so much from the "top 400 families."
 
To be fair, you'd probably see those lines intersect at some point if the data had been up-to-date. But I agree that you can only conclude so much from the "top 400 families."

is there any use talking about the top 400 unless there is a major effort to subject them to a different tax than everyone making more than a couple hundred K?

each of those families still pay more income taxes than 70 million plus americans

seems to me they are doing their part while 70 million americans are not
 
Is that how you envision the "poor repressed middle class" as living? Even a majority of people living in poverty don't live like this.

"In response to recently released Census Bureau poverty figures, the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC) called on Congress to adopt a moral budget that helps people meet their basic needs. Eliminating safety-net programs for the poor in favor of tax cuts for the rich — while 37 million live in poverty — is immoral, declared the AFSC, an international social justice organization."

"Nationwide, 37 million people, including 13 million children, live below the official poverty line of $9,643 for one person and $19,311 for a family of four. Nearly one in five U.S. children is poor."


37 Million People in Poverty in the U.S. - AMERICAN FRIENDS SERVICE COMMITTEE (AFSC) / Street Spirit v.11, n.10, 1oct2005


What's really going on with the economy? - unequal distribution of wealth and income

"A few years ago, Michael Eisner, president of Walt Disney Corp., earned $200,000,000. Bill Gates, the major stockholder of the software company Microsoft, is worth more than $9,000,000,000. The average salary for the chief executive officers of major American corporations is over $3,000,000 a year, not including stock options and special benefits.

Life for the rich never has been better. In the last 20 years, the wealthiest one percent of American families saw their after-tax incomes more than double. The very rich now own a greater percentage of the nation's wealth than at any time since the 1920s.

While the wealthy are becoming richer and the number of millionaires and billionaires is skyrocketing, there is another reality. Since 1973, 80% of all families have seen their incomes decline or remain stagnant. The average American today is working longer hours for less income--and has every reason to worry that the future will be even worse for his or her children.

Television news shows may not feature it, Reader's Digest may not discuss it, and the leaders of the Democratic and Republican parties may not make it a priority, but the decline in the standard of living of the average worker is, far and away, the most important and central issue facing this country.

The rich are getting richer; the poor are getting poorer; and the middle class is shrinking. This is the great truth of contemporary U.S. society. The future of the nation depends upon reversing this destructive process. If this is not accomplished, there is a great likelihood that the days of American democracy are numbered.

Just how bad is the situation of America's working men and women? Twenty years ago, U.S. workers were the best compensated in the world. Today, they rank 13th among industrialized nations in terms of wages and benefits. Foreign companies are investing in the U.S. for its comparatively cheap labor."



 
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a citizen buys 1000 dollars worth of acme inc's stock

someone driving a truck for acme inc swerves to miss a thrown tire or a dodging deer and kills a person in an oncoming car. the estate sues acme inc and say the verdict is a million dollar above acme's insurance

under current laws, the judgment has to be satisfied only with the assets of acme and that means the stockholder's investments could be toast.

guy thinks that the estate should be able to sue the citizen personally and collect against his property in addition to the limit of his investments. that is idiotic in my opinion since there is no negligence or blame or intent on the part of the stockholder

You have presented an incomplete picture. There is normally joint and several liability in business associations. Say that the same guy who bought 1000 dollars worth of acme, but acme wasn't incorporated, it was a no-frills partnership. Same facts.

Our poor shareholder is now on the hook. As an investor in the business, this is how it should be. Or maybe it shouldn't be, but it is the case under our legal system. The only difference in the little "inc" after acme's name, which represents the coercive protection agreement with government.

If you wanted to change the laws so that all business organizations, including the sole proprietorship and no-frills partnership, got limited liability, that would be fine, I would agree with you. But we are not talking about tort reform. The common law is what it is, and joint and several liability of business associations is what it is.

We are talking here about special perks granted by the government to certain types of businesses who have paid to see the government squelch the obligations they would have otherwise incurred at common law.

So, you, TD, are advocating for a nanny-state to take protect businesspeople who are too lazy and risk-averse to do their due diligence before they invest in a company and acquire liability. You want a free handout from the government just like every other parasite.
 
You have presented an incomplete picture. There is normally joint and several liability in business associations. Say that the same guy who bought 1000 dollars worth of acme, but acme wasn't incorporated, it was a no-frills partnership. Same facts.

Our poor shareholder is now on the hook. As an investor in the business, this is how it should be. Or maybe it shouldn't be, but it is the case under our legal system. The only difference in the little "inc" after acme's name, which represents the coercive protection agreement with government.

If you wanted to change the laws so that all business organizations, including the sole proprietorship and no-frills partnership, got limited liability, that would be fine, I would agree with you. But we are not talking about tort reform. The common law is what it is, and joint and several liability of business associations is what it is.

We are talking here about special perks granted by the government to certain types of businesses who have paid to see the government squelch the obligations they would have otherwise incurred at common law.

So, you, TD, are advocating for a nanny-state to take protect businesspeople who are too lazy and risk-averse to do their due diligence before they invest in a company and acquire liability. You want a free handout from the government just like every other parasite.

that has to be about as dishonest an interpretation of what reality is I have seen on this board

we will put you down as wanting to punish every shareholder even if they invest a few bucks-they should be liable for millions

luckily for the sane this sort of madness won't happen
 
"In response to recently released Census Bureau poverty figures, the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC) called on Congress to adopt a moral budget that helps people meet their basic needs. Eliminating safety-net programs for the poor in favor of tax cuts for the rich — while 37 million live in poverty — is immoral, declared the AFSC, an international social justice organization."

"Nationwide, 37 million people, including 13 million children, live below the official poverty line of $9,643 for one person and $19,311 for a family of four. Nearly one in five U.S. children is poor."

37 Million People in Poverty in the U.S. - AMERICAN FRIENDS SERVICE COMMITTEE (AFSC) / Street Spirit v.11, n.10, 1oct2005

What's really going on with the economy? - unequal distribution of wealth and income

"A few years ago, Michael Eisner, president of Walt Disney Corp., earned $200,000,000. Bill Gates, the major stockholder of the software company Microsoft, is worth more than $9,000,000,000. The average salary for the chief executive officers of major American corporations is over $3,000,000 a year, not including stock options and special benefits.

Life for the rich never has been better. In the last 20 years, the wealthiest one percent of American families saw their after-tax incomes more than double. The very rich now own a greater percentage of the nation's wealth than at any time since the 1920s.

While the wealthy are becoming richer and the number of millionaires and billionaires is skyrocketing, there is another reality. Since 1973, 80% of all families have seen their incomes decline or remain stagnant. The average American today is working longer hours for less income--and has every reason to worry that the future will be even worse for his or her children.

Television news shows may not feature it, Reader's Digest may not discuss it, and the leaders of the Democratic and Republican parties may not make it a priority, but the decline in the standard of living of the average worker is, far and away, the most important and central issue facing this country.

The rich are getting richer; the poor are getting poorer; and the middle class is shrinking. This is the great truth of contemporary U.S. society. The future of the nation depends upon reversing this destructive process. If this is not accomplished, there is a great likelihood that the days of American democracy are numbered.

Just how bad is the situation of America's working men and women? Twenty years ago, U.S. workers were the best compensated in the world. Today, they rank 13th among industrialized nations in terms of wages and benefits. Foreign companies are investing in the U.S. for its comparatively cheap labor."




I gotta wonder what good does it do for one guy to have 9 billion dollars?
 
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