View Poll Results: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

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Thread: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

  1. #31
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, posters on the right make this accusation all the time. They often try to paint it as though liberals are poor people who hate the rich and want to take their money from them for themselves.

    Obviously it is ridiculous. What policy people think is the most sensible isn't necessarily a function of their own self interest. I have worked as a dishwasher and bus boy in a small town and as the director of a department in a software company in silicon valley, but I've supported the same tax policy throughout.

    As far as the notion that it is about hating rich people, that is just as silly. It isn't like paying fair taxes would hurt the wealthy. It wouldn't have much any impact on them at all. Certainly much less of an impact than taxes have on middle class people. Besides, the wealthy currently pay much LOWER tax rates than the rest of us, so even if it did hurt them, it would just be them taking on the same sort of pain the rest of us have to accept.

    Instead of hate for the rich it is about love for the country as a whole. Our current tax scheme where the rich pay such absurdly low tax rates compared to everybody else is bad for the country. It hurts many, many, people. We have had to cut our safety back to smaller than what any other first world country has, but we're still running a huge deficits. We're getting screwed on both ends- we aren't getting as much back from government as people in other countries do, but we're taking on more debt than people on other countries have to to pay for it. Anybody who cares about the well being of the country as a whole should oppose that, right? Well, the solution is to fix the inexplicable special tax breaks the uberwealthy get.
    Well,

    1. The graphs Jeezy posted refute your claim that the rich have a lower tax rate, and
    2. What's "Fair"? I keep asking, and nobody will answer.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  2. #32
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Sorry, poor choice of words on my behalf ... I meant unrepresentative
    It's been representative/mostly unchanged since the late 80s.

    EDIT- 700TH POST.
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  3. #33
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Actually most don't just a few ****ing clowns who couldn't make it if they tried.... "ding fries are done".....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  4. #34
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    A much more sensible measure is quintiles --- and as you can see, the rate for the top quintile is higher than 16. I think THIS graph is what tessaesque was referring to when she said that top earners pay 30%. And essentially, she's right.

    That is highly misleading. It is dividing the people into quintiles based on taxable income and comparing it to the income taxes. Income taxes- meaning taxes on wages- are indeed progressive. But, the wealthy mostly don't work or make a very small portion of their income in the form of wages. They make most their income off of investments or inheritance. On that chart, somebody who made $100 million last year off their investments would be in the lowest quintile.

    Likewise, it only shows the income taxes paid, not sales or property taxes, FICA, vehicle taxes, unemployment insurance taxes, disability, etc. Where income taxes are progressive, those other taxes are regressive.

    So, basically it is a graph engineered to make it look like the wealthy are paying more taxes than the rest of us- it doesn't include the biggest forms of income the wealthy have and it excludes the biggest taxes the rest of us pay. Whenever you hear a source talking about who pays how much taxes, watch for example what kind of income they're considering and what kind of taxes they're talking about.

    If you include ALL types of income and ALL types of taxes, then you get a bell curve. The poor and the rich pay the lowest percentages, the middle class the most, with the upper middle class being the peak at about 43% and the poor and rich both coming in at around 17%. The overall national average is 27%.

  5. #35
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That is highly misleading. It is dividing the people into quintiles based on taxable income and comparing it to the income taxes. Income taxes- meaning taxes on wages- are indeed progressive. But, the wealthy mostly don't work or make a very small portion of their income in the form of wages. They make most their income off of investments or inheritance. On that chart, somebody who made $100 million last year off their investments would be in the lowest quintile.

    Likewise, it only shows the income taxes paid, not sales or property taxes, FICA, vehicle taxes, unemployment insurance taxes, disability, etc. Where income taxes are progressive, those other taxes are regressive.

    So, basically it is a graph engineered to make it look like the wealthy are paying more taxes than the rest of us- it doesn't include the biggest forms of income the wealthy have and it excludes the biggest taxes the rest of us pay. Whenever you hear a source talking about who pays how much taxes, watch for example what kind of income they're considering and what kind of taxes they're talking about.

    If you include ALL types of income and ALL types of taxes, then you get a bell curve. The poor and the rich pay the lowest percentages, the middle class the most, with the upper middle class being the peak at about 43% and the poor and rich both coming in at around 17%. The overall national average is 27%.
    So the wealthy don't pay FICA, own property, own vehicles, or buy anything???
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  6. #36
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    1. The graphs Jeezy posted refute your claim that the rich have a lower tax rate, and
    Answered above.

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    2. What's "Fair"? I keep asking, and nobody will answer.
    That's kind of like asking somebody to define the best football strategy or something. There isn't an answer. What is a fair rate one year might not be fair the next, like a particular passing play might be the best strategy against a particular opponent while a running strategy is better against another opponent on a windy day or whatever. In the middle of WWII, fair would obviously be a lot higher. If we are struggling to get enough investment in a particular year and our budget was looking ok, fair might be lower because we would rather they invest more of the money. When our national debt is high, fair would be higher. If we're in the middle of the great depression and we're struggling just to get everybody enough food to eat, fair is whatever the hell is needed, but when we're generally living pretty high on the hog and running a surplus, fair is probably just enough to keep us from sliding into deficit.

    It isn't like there is one set percentage that is always going to be the right one. When times are tough, everybody has to chip in more. When times are good, everybody has to chip in less. When our nation faces problems caused by a lack of investment, we might want to shift the tax burdens down a bit. When we face problems with low consumer spending and dangerous rich/normal gaps, then we want to shift it up a bit. "Fair tax rates" are tax rates that spread the weight of whatever challenges we're facing as a country around in a reasonable manner. I can't simplify it any more than that really.

  7. #37
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That is highly misleading. It is dividing the people into quintiles based on taxable income and comparing it to the income taxes. Income taxes- meaning taxes on wages- are indeed progressive. But, the wealthy mostly don't work or make a very small portion of their income in the form of wages. They make most their income off of investments or inheritance. On that chart, somebody who made $100 million last year off their investments would be in the lowest quintile.

    Likewise, it only shows the income taxes paid, not sales or property taxes, FICA, vehicle taxes, unemployment insurance taxes, disability, etc. Where income taxes are progressive, those other taxes are regressive.

    So, basically it is a graph engineered to make it look like the wealthy are paying more taxes than the rest of us- it doesn't include the biggest forms of income the wealthy have and it excludes the biggest taxes the rest of us pay. Whenever you hear a source talking about who pays how much taxes, watch for example what kind of income they're considering and what kind of taxes they're talking about.

    If you include ALL types of income and ALL types of taxes, then you get a bell curve. The poor and the rich pay the lowest percentages, the middle class the most, with the upper middle class being the peak at about 43% and the poor and rich both coming in at around 17%. The overall national average is 27%.
    ....you do realize that the capital gains tax is an income tax, right? And that the term "income tax" does not mean "taxes on wage" right? And that estates and trusts are also subject to income taxes, right?

    And that the graph accounts for that, right?

    Of course you do, of course you do...

    But on the offchance that you don't you should probably re-assess what my graph means. As should the people who liked your post.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 07-20-11 at 04:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
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  8. #38
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Answered above.



    That's kind of like asking somebody to define the best football strategy or something. There isn't an answer. What is a fair rate one year might not be fair the next, like a particular passing play might be the best strategy against a particular opponent while a running strategy is better against another opponent on a windy day or whatever. In the middle of WWII, fair would obviously be a lot higher. If we are struggling to get enough investment in a particular year and our budget was looking ok, fair might be lower because we would rather they invest more of the money. When our national debt is high, fair would be higher. If we're in the middle of the great depression and we're struggling just to get everybody enough food to eat, fair is whatever the hell is needed, but when we're generally living pretty high on the hog and running a surplus, fair is probably just enough to keep us from sliding into deficit.

    It isn't like there is one set percentage that is always going to be the right one. When times are tough, everybody has to chip in more. When times are good, everybody has to chip in less. When our nation faces problems caused by a lack of investment, we might want to shift the tax burdens down a bit. When we face problems with low consumer spending and dangerous rich/normal gaps, then we want to shift it up a bit. "Fair tax rates" are tax rates that spread the weight of whatever challenges we're facing as a country around in a reasonable manner. I can't simplify it any more than that really.
    So what you're saying is...any time something the rich have no control over happens, we need to hike up their financial obligation to take care of it. And that's "fair" because....?
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  9. #39
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    So what you're saying is...any time something the rich have no control over happens, we need to hike up their financial obligation to take care of it. And that's "fair" because....?
    Because all "rich" people are responsible for things, they had nothing to do with.
    Just more scape goating.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #40
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    So the wealthy don't pay FICA, own property, own vehicles, or buy anything???
    FICA taxes stop at $106,000. All income after that and all capital gains income is free of FICA taxes. That's what creates the disparity.

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