View Poll Results: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

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Thread: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

  1. #141
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    I was wrong on recalling the number it was 5.6 in this one though OR's might have been a more recent year

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  2. #142
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?
    I'm jealous and I have enough ambition to go out and get mine. I don't want the government to get it for me, because their cut is going to be way bigger than mine and I want most of that money to stay in my pocket.

  3. #143
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Second of all...states have a choice as to how they tax. You can't blame the federal government for regressive state taxation. That's federalism
    Blame the federal government? I don't care who to blame or whatever, I care how much of the tax burden is on who.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    ...Huh?

    Why would you index a property tax to income? Then it stops being a property tax.. The general logic of the property tax still holds -- richer people live in more expensive houses. Hence property taxes are, on the whole, progressive.
    No... That's what "progressive" or "regressive" means- whether it increases or decreases relative to the person's income. That is what matters about a tax- who gets hit up for how much. Whether there is some internal logic to the tax or not doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Giving a homestead exemption to renters defeats the point of a homestead exemption. You'd essentially be giving a 2x exemption to the landlord. Besides, the logic could just as easily be that a homeowner with less taxes on his homestead would not have the need to dramatically raise rent.
    Yeah, that doesn't mean that giving a homestead exception to landlords, but not renters, is not regressive. Yes, it is regressive- it benefits wealthier people and not less wealthy people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Renters have an entirely separate system of tax exemptions. You can claim a credit for paying rent on a property subject to taxes.
    That's true in a few states, not most though, and not for federal taxes as far as I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Here is the graph of your dreams. State taxes and all. And it's progressive, (if only slightly.)
    First off, your chart shows that it is REGRESSIVE for the top 1%, which is where it should be most steeply progressive since the average person in the top 1% makes five times as much as the average person in the next 4%. That's what I'm saying- it is progressive up through the upper middle class, then regressive because the top 1% pays less than the middle class.

    But, as for why it isn't showing the 18% my source quotes, perhaps it isn't counting all sources of income that my source did. Inheritance income maybe.
    Last edited by teamosil; 07-21-11 at 12:55 AM.

  4. #144
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Educated people don't think like that.

  5. #145
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    There seems to be an ongoing theme set by some that generally, those who care about the greater good of society and propose that a fair share of taxes be imposed on the extremely wealthy, are actually extremely envious/jealous and harbor hatred for the extremely wealthy. Supposedly, this is the reason these humanitarians propose a fair tax on the extremely wealthy. So letís see what everyone thinks.
    Isn't this you second thread on this topic? Hmmmmm. I wonder why there is an "ongoing theme."

  6. #146
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Notice also that the report protests that the top 1% pays "only 5%" more than the middle fifth when that middle fifth is only five percent more than the preceding quintile...
    Note that it ignores (or includes in the Top 1%) the top .01%, which is who I've been harping on as paying a rate of 16.6% - and I've provided you the link to the study that proves it.

  7. #147
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No... That's what "progressive" or "regressive" means- whether it increases or decreases relative to the person's income. That is what matters about a tax- who gets hit up for how much. Whether there is some internal logic to the tax or not doesn't matter.
    So you don't think the nature of a tax can be regressive or progressive unless it is directly pegged to income? Uhh...okay. Let's just forget that wealthy people live in expensive homes. Clearly, it's impossible for tax exemptions to be progressive unless they are directly linked to income.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, that doesn't mean that giving a homestead exception to landlords, but not renters, is not regressive. Yes, it is regressive- it benefits wealthier people and not less wealthy people.
    It's progressive in the sense that it makes property taxes more progressive.The largest tax cuts as a share of income go to lower- and middle income homeowners.

    Renters do not pay property taxes, and I seriously doubt that punitive cost is "passed on" to renters because of the exemption. Homestead exemptions don't suddenly spike the absolute value of rental property. It remains the same. Landlords have no incentive to charge higher rent because of homestead exemptions, especially if they pay less on their own home.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's true in a few states, not most though, and not for federal taxes as far as I know.
    At the federal level, a renter can take deductions for property taxes (if the lease actually requires you to pay them) and casualty losses, (if you use the premises as your home, as opposed to business uses).

    I know that California, Maryland, and Minnesota have renter credit. Maybe more.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    First off, your chart shows that it is REGRESSIVE for the top 1%, which is where it should be most steeply progressive since the average person in the top 1% makes five times as much as the average person in the next 4%. That's what I'm saying- it is progressive up through the upper middle class, then regressive because the top 1% pays less than the middle class.
    I've already said the top 1% need to pay more. I've also already said that they pay a federal income tax contribution proportionate to their income.

    Since you've moved the goal posts to state/local taxes, are you admitting then, that the chart is progressive for up to 99% of income earners in this country?

    Are you admitting then that most statistically rich people are being taxed progressively?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    But, as for why it isn't showing the 18% my source quotes, perhaps it isn't counting all sources of income that my source did. Inheritance income maybe.
    The source you never actually showed?
    Last edited by Jeezy; 07-21-11 at 04:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  8. #148
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Note that it ignores (or includes in the Top 1%) the top .01%, which is who I've been harping on as paying a rate of 16.6% - and I've provided you the link to the study that proves it.
    ...so I take it you are also admitting that the vast majority of statistically rich people are being taxed progressively?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  9. #149
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    So you don't think the nature of a tax can be regressive or progressive unless it is directly pegged to income? Uhh...okay.
    That is what the phrase "progressive tax" or "regressive tax" means- relative to income. The definition of a progressive tax system- "Progressive taxation characterizes a convex tax schedule that results in a higher effective tax rate on higher income levels. Increases for some increases in income, but never decreases with an increase in income."
    Progressive Taxation financial definition of Progressive Taxation. Progressive Taxation finance term by the Free Online Dictionary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Let's just forget that wealthy people live in expensive homes.
    Again, the percentage of somebody's income that they spend on housing drops as their income grows. The absolute amount certainly increases, but the percentage of their income drops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    It's progressive in the sense that it makes property taxes more progressive.The largest tax cuts as a share of income go to lower- and middle income homeowners.
    Are you claiming that an individual middle income homeowner gets a bigger tax break from the homeown exemption than a high income homeowner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Renters do not pay property taxes, and I seriously doubt that punitive cost is "passed on" to renters because of the exemption. Homestead exemptions don't suddenly spike the absolute value of rental property. It remains the same. Landlords have no incentive to charge higher rent because of homestead exemptions, especially if they pay less on their own home.
    Something makes the system more regressive either if it reduces the burden on those with higher incomes or increases the burden on those with lower incomes. It doesn't need to do both to make it more regressive...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Are you admitting then, that the chart is progressive for up to 99% of income earners in this country?
    I'm not sure that it is up to the 99th percentive. If we go by your chart, it says that up to somewhere between the 96th and 99th percentile it is progressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Are you admitting then that most statistically rich people are being taxed progressively?
    What? No, the somewhat wealthy- say top 1%- are being taxed REGRESSIVELY. Within that bracket the truely wealthy- say the top 0.1% or so- are being taxed extremely regressively, and the uberwealthy- say the top 0.01% or so- are being taxed absurdly regressively. So, no, I definitely would not agree with the statement that most rich people are being taxed progressively... That is absolutely, completely, false. All the evidence, including the sources you have posted, disprove that premise.

  10. #150
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That is what the phrase "progressive tax" or "regressive tax" means- relative to income. The definition of a progressive tax system- "Progressive taxation characterizes a convex tax schedule that results in a higher effective tax rate on higher income levels. Increases for some increases in income, but never decreases with an increase in income."
    Progressive Taxation financial definition of Progressive Taxation. Progressive Taxation finance term by the Free Online Dictionary.
    I would define it thus:

    any tax in which the rate increases as the amount subject to taxation increases
    wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Again, the percentage of somebody's income that they spend on housing drops as their income grows. The absolute amount certainly increases, but the percentage of their income drops.
    ...but it goes up relative to the assessed value of the house. That, by definition, is a property tax. If any tax in which the rate increases as the amount subject to taxation increases is a progressive tax, then a simple property tax is progressive and homestead exemptions make it more so.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Are you claiming that an individual middle income homeowner gets a bigger tax break from the homeown exemption than a high income homeowner?
    In my post, I said "as a share of income." So yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Something makes the system more regressive either if it reduces the burden on those with higher incomes or increases the burden on those with lower incomes. It doesn't need to do both to make it more regressive...
    Oh, so now we're only talking relative regressiveness for the whole system? And we should avoid any increase in relative regressiveness to the system?

    This argument doesn't make sense. 67% of people in this country own homes. A homestead exemption helps the people toward the bottom of that distribution pay their property tax. Renters pay rent and rent insurance...so they don't pay that tax at all, and there's no evidence that homestead exemptions translate into significant rent increases for them, since landlords have no incentive to do so. Yes, it might make the system "more" regressive...but it doesn't mean the system IS regressive for the vast majority...by that token ANYTHING that cuts taxes for the top 50%, even if it doesn't raise it for the bottom 50%, is worth fighting against. That's absurd.

    And hey, since now we're only talking about relative regressiveness, do you agree that homestead exemptions make property taxes more progressive?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I'm not sure that it is up to the 99th percentive. If we go by your chart, it says that up to somewhere between the 96th and 99th percentile it is progressive.

    What? No, the somewhat wealthy- say top 1%- are being taxed REGRESSIVELY. Within that bracket the truely wealthy- say the top 0.1% or so- are being taxed extremely regressively, and the uberwealthy- say the top 0.01% or so- are being taxed absurdly regressively. So, no, I definitely would not agree with the statement that most rich people are being taxed progressively... That is absolutely, completely, false. All the evidence, including the sources you have posted, disprove that premise.
    The above quotes are contradictory.

    I'll ask again.

    Are you admitting then, that the chart is progressive for up to 96-99% of income earners in this country?

    Are you admitting that most statistically rich people are being taxed progressively?
    Last edited by Jeezy; 07-21-11 at 04:40 PM.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

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