View Poll Results: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

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  • Yes

    52 67.53%
  • No

    25 32.47%
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Thread: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

  1. #131
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    both concepts shield offices of a corporate entity from being sued personally.
    And that is where the similarities end.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    You are again trying to engage in a contrarian argument and I won't play that game.
    But you already played, and lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    And your argument is just that
    My argument is the argument for total personal responsibility. Parasites like yourself have no problem paying lip service to personal responsibility, until you actually have to face the consequences, and then it's all "what about the babies with complicated deliveries" and other bleeding heart nonsense.

    Left wingers like you make me ill.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 07-20-11 at 11:05 PM.

  2. #132
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by this.
    .
    Like I said, I have spent the majority of my life in what one would call the "poor house". Thus I grew up with and was raised around other kids and their families who were in much the same boat as my family. I'm still friends with many of them. Now many of them live in the same situation they grew up in, that I grew up in. When my wife and I were first married, we lived below the poverty line. We still had a one bedroom apartment, basic cable and internet access. We didn't have the luxury of cell phones, video games, flat panel TVs, nor could we afford to go out to a nice dinner. Our treat was spending $8 once a week on the Wendy's dollar menu. But we were smart enough to not have kids during this time, for exercise we went running outside(free) instead thinking of going to a gym, and for $5 I fashioned a homemade pullup bar. Throw in push ups and crunches and we kept ourselves healthy for cheap. We had one credit card, and we did not max it out. Saved it for emergencies, for which we thankfully had very little. Neither of us smoked, did drugs, nor did we buy alcohol during this time.

    We planned for the future and took steps to direct us towards that. She got her nursing degree and I took a job in insurance. For a couple of years we made good money (from my perspective) that landed us in middle class status. But I was unhappy with working in insurance, so we decided to tough it out on her job alone while I went back to school to find a career I would enjoy. We then moved back into a lower middle-class income, considering we now had 1 kid and one on the way. This is where we are now, except I have just started my new career so within the next year we will be back to a more regular middle class amount of money. So from my low-middle class spot in life, I type this post on a laptop computer with high speed internet access, while I watch ESPN through my direcTV satelitte provider on my 42" flat panel TV. no, its not 1080p, I don't have HD programming, and I don't have all the movie channels. I have had to live with not ordering UFC PPVs, and I have missed out on the first 4 iphone releases, and their competitive counterparts. But life isn't bad. In fact, I can't think of anything that I "need" as a lower middle class person. My needs have been met 10 fold. Yes there I things I want, but I have the patience and the forethought to pursue them only when I can afford it. My wife and I have never had a honeymoon, but we know that one day the timing and the money will be right and we can choose to pursue it at that time.

    Some of my friends that I grew up with, in the same situation, with the same public education I had, have been kicked out of their trailer homes because they wanted to spend their rent money on Packers tickets, drink and smoke heavily, get fired from a multitude of jobs because they drank too much the night before and missed too many days, had cars repossessed because they wanted to smoke weed instead of pay their car payments, etc... But they have a social safety net they can fall back on. So they never change their priorities, because the state will allow them to continue to fail and then prop them up. We can't say I came from greater means and thus had greater opportunities. They all had the same choices in life to make as I did, and the same lack of resources to start with. The difference is priorities. Yes, it is rare for the poor man to rise up to become a powerful business mogul. That is why I don't point to those examples. However, it is not impossible nor even that difficult for a poor man/woman to be able to navigate successfully in our country, provided they have their priorities right.

    No, my life hasn't been the most exciting and colorful. Many would call it boring. I like to think of it as my life being a train, and the lives of my friends as a rollercoaster. Their lives are centered on entertainment and pleasure. They have many twists and turns, ups and downs. But theirs is a circular life that keeps repeating itself.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

  3. #133
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Exactly. So there you go. That's a big part of our nation's tax scheme that is regressive.
    Well yes, but the nation's tax scheme is still progressive with those included, albeit weakly progressive, as I will show below.

    Second of all...states have a choice as to how they tax. You can't blame the federal government for regressive state taxation. That's federalism

    No, that's not true. Yes, the rate goes up in some states, but even in those states that would make it progressive relative to the value of the property, not relative to the income of the owner. Regressive means relative to the income of the owner, and it still is. The percentage of somebody's income that goes to housing drops off rapidly as income goes up.
    ...Huh?

    Why would you index a property tax to income? Then it stops being a property tax. The general logic of the property tax still holds -- richer people live in more expensive houses. Hence property taxes are, on the whole, progressive.

    As for the homestead exemption, that actually makes it more regressive. It means that rental properties pay higher property taxes than homes the owner lives in. They pass that on to the renter and renters tend to be poorer than owners.
    Giving a homestead exemption to renters defeats the point of a homestead exemption. You'd essentially be giving a 2x exemption to the landlord. Besides, the logic could just as easily be that a homeowner with less taxes on his homestead would not have the need to dramatically raise rent.

    Renters have an entirely separate system of tax exemptions. You can claim a credit for paying rent on a property subject to taxes.

    We don't need to guess about these things. The numbers are well known. The average American pays 27% in taxes total. The top 1% pays 18%. The upper middle class pays as high as 43%.
    Progressive sources beg to differ.

    http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf



    Here is the graph of your dreams. State taxes and all. And it's progressive, (if only slightly.)

    It also asserts that 60% of the population has higher federal government tax burdens (as a percent of income) than they do at the state/local level.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 07-21-11 at 12:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
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  4. #134
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Well yes, but the nation's tax scheme is still progressive with those included, albeit weakly progressive, as I will show below.

    Second of all...states have a choice as to how they tax. You can't blame the federal government for regressive state taxation. That's federalism



    ...Huh?

    Why would you index a property tax to income? Then it stops being a property tax. The general logic of the property tax still holds -- richer people live in more expensive houses. Hence property taxes are, on the whole, progressive.



    Giving a homestead exemption to renters defeats the point of a homestead exemption. You'd essentially be giving a 2x exemption to the landlord. Besides, the logic could just as easily be that a homeowner with less taxes on his homestead would not have the need to dramatically raise rent.

    Renters have an entirely separate system of tax exemptions. You can claim a credit for paying rent on a property subject to taxes.



    Progressive sources beg to differ.

    http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf



    Here is the graph of your dreams. State taxes and all. And it's progressive, (if only slightly.)
    doesnt that graph count taxes the bottom quintile pay out of money GIVEN them from the government

    if the government (Federal) gives you 10K and you pay 700 of that in sales tax do you really have a 7% tax rate when it was money given to you in the first place? its merely one government's money going to another one



  5. #135
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Its hard to say since everyone is different, as most regulars here know that I hate alot of things and alot of people. However I view hating someone who has money, completely retarded, it makes no sense to hate people who create the jobs. Call me crazy, granted some already do.
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

  6. #136
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    doesnt that graph count taxes the bottom quintile pay out of money GIVEN them from the government

    if the government (Federal) gives you 10K and you pay 700 of that in sales tax do you really have a 7% tax rate when it was money given to you in the first place? its merely one government's money going to another one

    Notice also that the report protests that the top 1% pays "only 5%" more than the middle fifth when that middle fifth is only five percent more than the preceding quintile...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
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  7. #137
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Notice also that the report protests that the top 1% pays "only 5%" more than the middle fifth when that middle fifth is only five percent more than the preceding quintile...
    Oldreliable67 posted a citation on the economics board demonstrating that the lowest quintile rate of effective federal taxes was MINUS 6.8% meaning they were given income from the federal government

    saying the taxes they pay with THAT MONEY should be counted in their tax rate is rather bogus



  8. #138
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Oldreliable67 posted a citation on the economics board demonstrating that the lowest quintile rate of effective federal taxes was MINUS 6.8% meaning they were given income from the federal government

    saying the taxes they pay with THAT MONEY should be counted in their tax rate is rather bogus
    link

    123456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  9. #139
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    link

    123456
    I couldn't find OR's original but another poster repeated the figures in one of the threads

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Lies and perversion of truth.

    49% of all so-called taxpayers pay no income tax at all.
    I promise you that most people have absolutely no idea what their effective tax rate is, and that includes Warren Buffett's secretary and the administrative staff in the author's workplace. Ask and you'll get a guess. And the guess will be wrong.

    Stats from 2001, CBO:

    • The lowest quintile's effective tax rate is a negative 5.6% -- meaning they get back 5.6% more than they paid in.
    • Second quintile .3%.
    • Third quintile 3.8%
    • Fourth quintile 7.2%
    • Highest quintile 16.3%.
    • Everyone's average is 10.4%
    • Top 10% of payers 18.7%
    • Top 5% of payers 20.8%
    • Top 1% of payers 24.1

    http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/53xx/doc5...es.htm#table1A

    The author MBig quotes is an idiot. Makes for inciting copy. Nothing more.



  10. #140
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    Re: Does the average citizen harbor envy/jealousy, hatred for the extremely wealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Oldreliable67 posted a citation on the economics board demonstrating that the lowest quintile rate of effective federal taxes was MINUS 6.8% meaning they were given income from the federal government

    saying the taxes they pay with THAT MONEY should be counted in their tax rate is rather bogus
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    link

    123456
    Honestly that doesn't surprise me one bit. Parts of our tax code have already become a net, negative tax, and that's before you count the welfare spending side of the equation.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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