• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Do The Rich Need Saving?

Do The Rich Need Saving?

  • Total voters
    54
Catawba said:
Let's see your analysis that made your come to the conclusion that modern pollution control has hurt our economy rather than helped it? Increased welfare is result of trickle down economics and the recession which was brought about by cutting regulation of the banking industry. We have not had such a wide disparity of wealth since the 1920s.
Click to expand...
Very valid points being brought up here... Interesting how this plays out. I suspect massive amounts of graphs.
 
The class war is the same today as then, only some of the names have changed:

cartoon200304043.gif
 
Catawba said:
The class war is the same today as then, only some of the names have changed:

cartoon200304043.gif
Click to expand...

If you want to tax the rich more apparently now its "you have class envy on the job creators and you are starting a class war..."

But i thought class war looked like this:
 
TurtleDude said:
reading more than a few posts on a thread you jump into spares one embarrassment
Click to expand...

Again, thank you for filling me in .. however you were somewhat misleading .. as I can tell this post by Catawba:

Catawba said:
Then stop waging it against the working class.
Click to expand...

was a response to the following quote by ElCid:


ElCid said:
The rich need to SPEND THEIR MONEY, to stimulate the economy. Class warfare is despicable.
Click to expand...

Seeing the whole story enables me to realize what was really going on. ElCid was accusing the lower classes (those that are not "rich") of waging war against the rich. Catawba was correcting ElCid by identifying the fact that if anyone is "waging war", it is the rich who support the elimination of the middle and working classes to the betterment of themselves.

It seems the rich wish to move toward monopolizing and the working class wish to create a society in which there is true equal opportunity. That is, simply because one person was able to race faster than some slowpoke rich person who had an unfair head start, does not mean that equal opportunity exists; rather it only means that one abnormal person was able to beat the odds and become wealthy. The reason this is not indicative of equal opportunity is that all of the wealthy who have unfair head starts, e.g. inherited money, inherited reputations, inherited access to certain elite clubs, inherited access to ivy league schools etc. (and the list goes on and on). The fact that the wealthy do not want to even the playing field means that they essentially do not wish for there to be good mobility between economic classes.

Instead, it appears they prefer the status quo. So in a sense, if the wealthy want to keep all of their money and only intend to become even more wealthy, they are not allowing equally skilled yet less fortunate citizens of the lower classes to have a good chance to move up the ladder. While this is not warfare in the typical "blood and guts" sense, I can see how such a conflict which can lead to some having plenty and others enduring hardship, as a type of warfare.
 
Bernie Sanders describes very clearly here the class war being waged ~


 
TheDemSocialist said:
If you want to tax the rich more apparently now its "you have class envy on the job creators and you are starting a class war..."

But i thought class war looked like this:
Click to expand...

I'd be fine with that too.
 
TurtleDude said:
massive lie on your part. the rich pay a higher total federal tax rate than the poor-many of whom are GIVEN money by the government. If someone gives you 20,000 dollars and you use that to pay say 4000 dollars of taxes your effective tax rate is not 20%. Its still ZERO since those taxes were actually paid by those whose money was given to you.

When the rich pay almost twice as much of the tax burden than their share of the income, you lose what little credibility you might have had by claiming that being taxed more than everyone else is a sense of entitlement

the entitlement is evidenced by people like you who think that you should not even pay the same share of the income tax as your share of the income

Your rant is based on the assumption that the rich should pay far more taxes because you think they should rather than any objective comparison of income received and taxes paid

the top few percent ARE THE ONLY GROUP that pay more of the federal income tax burden than their share of the income
Click to expand...

I think what you are not understanding is how the wealthy actually do not feel any burden at all when they pay a higher tax percentage (which they often don't anyway because there are always loopholes to be exploited).

Here is why they do not feel a burden:

It is very simple. All one must consider is the cost of living. The cost of living (having a home, transportation, food and so on) does not change when you become wealthy. Therefore, the higher your wage is, the lower the cost of living is as a percent of your income. What this means is that the wealthy have a whole lot of money after they have paid for their cost of living. They can do whatever they like with this money .. even use it to insulate their houses if they want to. However, a small percentage of the money that they have above their cost of living (i.e. the money they have floating around wherever they want it) is paid in income tax.

As these wealthy individuals will will likely not loose much sleep by not using as much of it as insulation (regular insulation is much better and cheaper by volume), or by not using it to buy a 10th house, or a 3rd private plane, or a 10th car (all supporting paying less than living wages) or most likely, it will simply sit in a high interest account and accumulate more and more wealth and so on (the amount of frivolous items that money beyond the cost of living can be used for is nearly infinite); this money easily and painlessly can be used by the government for many different purposes (roads etc. including being used as a way to allow more mobility between classes and lessen the hardship of the working class, whom the wealthy depend on for their wealth).

In fact the only pain that a wealthy person may feel from having to pay a slightly higher percentage in income tax, is the pain that is imagined in their minds. In other words, it may put a dent in their fragile egos, or insult one of their illogical principles. If the wealthy were not aware of the income tax they pay, they likely wouldn't even be aware that the relatively small amount of money were gone .. unless of course they were in a fierce competition with their other wealthy buddies to see who could buy the most and largest homes or the most vintage sports cars, yachts or custom pools (while paying under a living wage for it to be done).

It would be like a person ends up owning a 10,000 acre lot with every square inch packed with fruits, vegetables, livestock etc.. Lets say a person could only consume 1,000 acres of product within his/her lifetime. Now lets imagine that that person got extremely upset if a visitor who had no property dared to ask for ten acres (lets assume that is what it would take for them to live off) to use to survive and they would promise to help out in maintaining a portion of the landowner's lot in return. If you can understand this analogy, you can see how absolutely ridiculous it is that the wealthy get all worked up at the thought of paying their fair share (i.e. a slightly higher percentage of income tax, offset by wealth-friendly loopholes) in income tax.

Obviously, the person with the 10,000 acre lot is the wealthy person and the visitor is someone born into poverty. How dare that visitor ask to work for a living wage .. even worse how dare that visitor ask for a portion of my property in return for his/her services; that's my property, even if I will never use it, a large reason I have it is due to inheretence and it would have gone to waist anyway. The nerve!
 
Catawba said:
Bernie Sanders describes very clearly here the class war being waged ~


Click to expand...


Senator Bernie Sanders is the best single member of Congress in Washington DC. He is one of the few who lays out reality and truth in stark terms and speaks directly to the War on America being waged by the corporations and wealthy.
 
poverty.jpg


This is what class warfare looks like. A long line of desperate people who can't feed their families, because they had no job security, never got paid enough to have any kind of savings, no education, and no power. This is half of the American population. The people in this picture haven't got jobs, because the jobs disappeared in order to make company profits higher. And the members of this class who do have jobs have no security, no leverage. Every day they're reminded that tomorrow they could end up on this line.

This is what class warfare really looks like.
 
haymarket said:
Your own article states this very clearly



so much for the rest of it based on assumptions that they admit are "impossible to know".
Click to expand...

What we do know is that nearly everything is more expensive (which hurts whom?) and that QE did nothing for employment.

What we do know is that millions of seniors have been hurt by the artificially low interest rates and those rates have done little for growth and housing.

What we do know is that with the artifical floor created by QE gone, Wall Street has nothing to build on. What we do know is that if QE3 is enacted, inflation will again take hold (which hurts what segment of the population?)

No, we do not know what the rates would be exactly but we know that the basis for the article is correct. QE was a program that's intention was in bringing the markets back up to pre-crash levels. In the hopes it would trickle down? No?
 
Catawba said:
Bernie Sanders describes very clearly here the class war being waged ~


Click to expand...


I bet half of those for tax breaks on the upper 1% and for reducing programs for the working class, did not even bother to watch this and if they did, I bet the facts given were just ignored. This is one of the most clean cut and dry arguments I have seen. No punches were pulled, he just told it like it is. 5 of 5 stars :)
 
Six stars would be better. :2wave::peace
 
MusicAdventurer said:
I bet half of those for tax breaks on the upper 1% and for reducing programs for the working class, did not even bother to watch this and if they did, I bet the facts given were just ignored. This is one of the most clean cut and dry arguments I have seen. No punches were pulled, he just told it like it is. 5 of 5 stars :)
Click to expand...

It does not satisfy the wants of short term greed. It requires we consider long term stability and the greater good of country. I think it ultimately comes down to that.
 
nijato said:
Carefull here... remember that the poor pay a much higher percentage of thier income to payroll taxes as well as those obscenely regressive sales taxes. And therefore, since the poor spend a far, far higher percentage of thier income on things like food, shelter and sales taxes than the wealthy (nevermind cigarettes and the lottery!), we have a progressive (as opposed to regressive) tax rate. Is that wrong? Should we tax the poor into a state of malnutrition? death?
Click to expand...

1) state taxes are not relevant when dealing with federal issues-especially if the money they use is from the federal government

2) what exactly are Payroll taxes and what do they fund?

Food isn't taxed.

47% of the country doesn't pay federal income taxes. are you saying they are all poor?

and why do you ignore value received as an issue in paying taxes?
 
Catawba said:
Bernie Sanders describes very clearly here the class war being waged ~


Click to expand...


I am glad you see Sanders as your messiah. it pretty much sums it all up.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
I think what you are not understanding is how the wealthy actually do not feel any burden at all when they pay a higher tax percentage (which they often don't anyway because there are always loopholes to be exploited).

Here is why they do not feel a burden:

It is very simple. All one must consider is the cost of living. The cost of living (having a home, transportation, food and so on) does not change when you become wealthy. Therefore, the higher your wage is, the lower the cost of living is as a percent of your income. What this means is that the wealthy have a whole lot of money after they have paid for their cost of living. They can do whatever they like with this money .. even use it to insulate their houses if they want to. However, a small percentage of the money that they have above their cost of living (i.e. the money they have floating around wherever they want it) is paid in income tax.

As these wealthy individuals will will likely not loose much sleep by not using as much of it as insulation (regular insulation is much better and cheaper by volume), or by not using it to buy a 10th house, or a 3rd private plane, or a 10th car (all supporting paying less than living wages) or most likely, it will simply sit in a high interest account and accumulate more and more wealth and so on (the amount of frivolous items that money beyond the cost of living can be used for is nearly infinite); this money easily and painlessly can be used by the government for many different purposes (roads etc. including being used as a way to allow more mobility between classes and lessen the hardship of the working class, whom the wealthy depend on for their wealth).

In fact the only pain that a wealthy person may feel from having to pay a slightly higher percentage in income tax, is the pain that is imagined in their minds. In other words, it may put a dent in their fragile egos, or insult one of their illogical principles. If the wealthy were not aware of the income tax they pay, they likely wouldn't even be aware that the relatively small amount of money were gone .. unless of course they were in a fierce competition with their other wealthy buddies to see who could buy the most and largest homes or the most vintage sports cars, yachts or custom pools (while paying under a living wage for it to be done).

It would be like a person ends up owning a 10,000 acre lot with every square inch packed with fruits, vegetables, livestock etc.. Lets say a person could only consume 1,000 acres of product within his/her lifetime. Now lets imagine that that person got extremely upset if a visitor who had no property dared to ask for ten acres (lets assume that is what it would take for them to live off) to use to survive and they would promise to help out in maintaining a portion of the landowner's lot in return. If you can understand this analogy, you can see how absolutely ridiculous it is that the wealthy get all worked up at the thought of paying their fair share (i.e. a slightly higher percentage of income tax, offset by wealth-friendly loopholes) in income tax.

Obviously, the person with the 10,000 acre lot is the wealthy person and the visitor is someone born into poverty. How dare that visitor ask to work for a living wage .. even worse how dare that visitor ask for a portion of my property in return for his/her services; that's my property, even if I will never use it, a large reason I have it is due to inheretence and it would have gone to waist anyway. The nerve!
Click to expand...


If you aren't subject to those taxes you have no relevance in claiming that those who are targeted for tax hikes won't "feel it"

you project your own budget onto the rich and assume that they have the same expenses you do

what I understand is that you think your existence entitles you to the wealth of others

and your absolute crap that the rich don't pay their fair share brands you as dishonest in my eyes. You again are seeing tax rates as a tool to create "Fairness" in the world and to punish those you think received improper or uncalled for benefits be they intelligence, good looks, athletic talent or prosperous families.

looking at things objectively, anyone who claims that a group that pays almost twice as much of the tax burden (and when you count death taxes its about twice) as their share of the income is not paying their fair share.

I find your claims totally devoid of reality
 
Paschendale said:
poverty.jpg


This is what class warfare looks like. A long line of desperate people who can't feed their families, because they had no job security, never got paid enough to have any kind of savings, no education, and no power. This is half of the American population. The people in this picture haven't got jobs, because the jobs disappeared in order to make company profits higher. And the members of this class who do have jobs have no security, no leverage. Every day they're reminded that tomorrow they could end up on this line.

This is what class warfare really looks like.
Click to expand...

Your silly picture is worthless

how many of those people have felony records?
How many of them are drug addicts or alcoholics
How many of them dropped out of HS
How many of them started spawning children before they were married

Until you can tell us the answers to those questions, your claims are without any merit
 
TurtleDude said:
Your silly picture is worthless

how many of those people have felony records?
How many of them are drug addicts or alcoholics
How many of them dropped out of HS
How many of them started spawning children before they were married

Until you can tell us the answers to those questions, your claims are without any merit
Click to expand...

"First Collector: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.

Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?

First Collector: Plenty of prisons.

Ebenezer: And the union workhouses - are they still in operation?

First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.

Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I'm very glad to hear it."

From A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens
 
Catawba said:
"First Collector: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.

Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?

First Collector: Plenty of prisons.

Ebenezer: And the union workhouses - are they still in operation?

First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.

Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I'm very glad to hear it."

From A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens
Click to expand...

In other words, you can't answer simple questions so you choose to obfuscate.

Typical liberal.
 
Paschendale said:
poverty.jpg


This is what class warfare looks like. A long line of desperate people who can't feed their families, because they had no job security, never got paid enough to have any kind of savings, no education, and no power. This is half of the American population. The people in this picture haven't got jobs, because the jobs disappeared in order to make company profits higher. And the members of this class who do have jobs have no security, no leverage. Every day they're reminded that tomorrow they could end up on this line.

This is what class warfare really looks like.
Click to expand...

And, whose fault is that?!? Most of those people are in that line, looking for a handout, because they chose to be there.
 
TurtleDude said:
Your silly picture is worthless

how many of those people have felony records?
How many of them are drug addicts or alcoholics
How many of them dropped out of HS
How many of them started spawning children before they were married

Until you can tell us the answers to those questions, your claims are without any merit
Click to expand...

From this post, it seems that you harbor some serious hate for those that are in poverty, I wonder what that is all about?

When I see these unfortunate brothers and sisters in humanity, I see exactly what Paschendale describes.

And I say to you .. what does it matter how many have felony records, how many are drug/alcohol addicts, how many dropped out of high school etc. .. how does any of these facts matter? (oh and why would having children outside of wedlock matter?) Does that make them deserve their suffering? I have a funny feeling you have no idea why and how some people end of with felony's, addicted to drugs/alcohol etc. One thing that may help you understand is that statistically, being born in poverty, simply puts one at high risk for most of those things. A few find a sympathetic mentor or two and find their way out of poverty (certainly usually not wealthy, likely only to working class levels), however, the majority do not. If you knew anything about what it is like to grow up in poverty, I doubt you would harbor such hatred for them.

One study that has been done does shed light on some people's hatred for those in poverty. It was found that if groups of people view other groups of people as less than human, it is easier to be hurtful to them (e.g. like it was easy to own slaves because their owners viewed them as less than human). How this is relevant is that most of the people's posts that reflect a certain degree of hatred and do not take into consideration the plight of those in poverty are likely posted by individuals who, in order to endorse a cold, purely capitalistic (without any socialistic influence) stance, view these people as less than human, e.g. they are worthless beings, they cause nothing but trouble, it is their own fault that they are in their situation, they should have worked harder and so on.

As we are all human and our personalities, world views, attitudes, behaviors and actions are ultimately determined by an interaction between our genes (genetic traits; both physical and psychological) and our environment (parents, teachers, grandparents, peers, the social system, the political system, the economy etc.), how can we not want to help our those who were not as fortunate in their genetic and environmental endowments? How can we not want to reduce the likelihood of more people being born into such situations?

I suppose if one views the individual as having complete control over his/her outcome and thus views some lives as better or more valuable than others .. it may be quite easy to be unsympathetic toward the less fortunate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom