View Poll Results: Do The Rich Need Saving?

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    7 10.00%
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    59 84.29%
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Thread: Do The Rich Need Saving?

  1. #51
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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Do those people really need to pay more? They pay less than I do and you don't see me whining. Frankly, instead of whining, we should seek better ways of moving more of them up, a helping hand that teaches them to fish if you will.
    We spend a lot of money "moving them up" right now...and it isn't working. My point, however, was not addressed.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    many on the left think that those who do well were GIVEN more by the government which is a lie
    Can you find me saying that anywhere? I will say for myself that successfor me came with many people helping. Few people actually do everything all by themselves. But they seldom have success without their own effort either. It is foolish to paint things as all one or the other.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #53
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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    We spend a lot of money "moving them up" right now...and it isn't working. My point, however, was not addressed.
    Comparatively very little. We spend much on corporations.

    Not sure what your point was exactly. Can you rephrase?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #54
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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Can you find me saying that anywhere? I will say for myself that successfor me came with many people helping. Few people actually do everything all by themselves. But they seldom have success without their own effort either. It is foolish to paint things as all one or the other.
    This sure sounds like you are saying the rich get tons of benefits-more than 40% of the government spending that everyone else

    BBL


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Hell, they benefit more than that. A good deal more. That's why they are running around bemoaning being rich. No one is saying they rather be poor.

    But if you follow tax history in this country, you would know that increase would not be excessive or more than has been paid before.



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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Can you find me saying that anywhere? I will say for myself that successfor me came with many people helping. Few people actually do everything all by themselves. But they seldom have success without their own effort either. It is foolish to paint things as all one or the other.
    I think the balance is the problem. We spend a LOT of money on programs designed to aid the poor in "rising up". And we're not seeing a lot of poor "rising up", even in good economic times. Why would we throw more money at the problem, lessen their responsibilities and the expectations we have for them, or encourage them to continue utilizing programs that aren't helping them advance beyond their current station? Why aren't we creating programs that will actually change the status quo, instead of just holding everything in place??? We have major, major spending problems in this country and nobody is touching them...but the quick fix and the first thing I see time after time is to just tax the "rich" more because they aren't paying their "fair share". How about before we ask ANYBODY to contribute more money to a broken system we actually fix it. It's like handing out more buckets on a leaky ship...sure, it'll give you more time..but ultimately the boat's still full of holes.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  6. #56
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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    This sure sounds like you are saying the rich get tons of benefits-more than 40% of the government spending that everyone else

    BBL
    Yes, i am saying they get benefits. And they do. I admit I misread your quote. Sorry. I thought you were saying people got their wealth without work. My bad.

    But yes, they do get a lot directly and indirectly from the government. I've listed some links on this thread, and you can find many more if you look.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #57
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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I think the balance is the problem. We spend a LOT of money on programs designed to aid the poor in "rising up". And we're not seeing a lot of poor "rising up", even in good economic times. Why would we throw more money at the problem, lessen their responsibilities and the expectations we have for them, or encourage them to continue utilizing programs that aren't helping them advance beyond their current station? Why aren't we creating programs that will actually change the status quo, instead of just holding everything in place??? We have major, major spending problems in this country and nobody is touching them...but the quick fix and the first thing I see time after time is to just tax the "rich" more because they aren't paying their "fair share". How about before we ask ANYBODY to contribute more money to a broken system we actually fix it. It's like handing out more buckets on a leaky ship...sure, it'll give you more time..but ultimately the boat's still full of holes.
    Perhaps rising up is harder than many think. Perhaps we have not created the proper program. But, we really don't invest that much, comparatively. If we gave less to corporations, and more at the bottom, we might do better. Maybe.

    As for fixing the ship, while we can do both at the same time, we must first indentify exactly what is broken, the causes of the probelm and then suggest a fix. There is no reason we can't do that while increasing revenue.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #58
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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Perhaps rising up is harder than many think. Perhaps we have not created the proper program. But, we really don't invest that much, comparatively. If we gave less to corporations, and more at the bottom, we might do better. Maybe.

    As for fixing the ship, while we can do both at the same time, we must first indentify exactly what is broken, the causes of the probelm and then suggest a fix. There is no reason we can't do that while increasing revenue.
    I have a huge problem with punishing those who work, succeed, and already pay taxes for the sake of funneling more money to those who don't....ESPECIALLY if we're still waiting on a "fix" for the programs that are causing these people to fail/stagnate, as well as every other program, department, and organization which receives money from the government. Fix first, charge after...if it's necessary.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  9. #59
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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Well in the end, the extremely rich get enough to their companies and holdings through subsidies, breaks in income tax levels by redefining almost all their income as "capital gains", and enjoy lax laws aimed at their benefit. I think they'll be alright; we don't need to worry too much about them.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Do The Rich Need Saving?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I have a huge problem with punishing those who work, succeed, and already pay taxes for the sake of funneling more money to those who don't....ESPECIALLY if we're still waiting on a "fix" for the programs that are causing these people to fail/stagnate, as well as every other program, department, and organization which receives money from the government. Fix first, charge after...if it's necessary.
    no one is punishing them. You simply have it framed more. They get more so they owe more.


    Hidden Truths Of Progressive Taxes
    George Lakoff and Bruce Budner
    April 16, 2007


    George Lakoff is a senior fellow at the Rockridge Institute. Bruce Budner is its executive director.

    At this time of year it seems there are only two things certain in life, taxes and anxiety about taxes. Instead of the perennial talk of a simplified tax form, how about a simplified understanding of the progressive values that underlie our tradition of progressive taxation?

    Such an understanding won't move the tax deadline. But it might eliminate some of the anxiety. Understanding the hidden truths behind progressive taxation might also lead to more coherent—and more just—tax policies.

    Progressive taxation—taxing the wealthy at higher rates than the poor—is a moral issue. Like many moral issues, it sparks heated debate. The debate is borne of conflicting worldviews, values, and understandings of values. But as we at the Rockridge Institute have written, when progressives understand the values and ideas that underlie their positions on issues, they can articulate arguments authentically and with greater persuasive force. These arguments will appeal to those whom we call biconceptuals—the great majority of Americans whose worldviews borrow in various ways from both progressive and conservative values.

    America's government has at least two fundamental functions, protection and empowerment. Protection includes the police, firefighters, emergency services, public health, the military, and so on. Empowerment includes the infrastructure needed for business and everyday life: roads, communications systems, water supplies, public education, the banking system for loans and economic stability, the SEC for the stock market, the courts for enforcing contracts, air traffic control, support for basic science, our national parks and public buildings, and more. We are usually aware of protection. But the empowerment infrastructure, provided by taxes, is usually taken for granted, hidden, or ignored. Yet it is absolutely crucial, a fundamental truth about America and why America provides opportunity.

    This is a basic truth. That is what framing should be about: revealing truths and allowing us to reason using them.

    Taxes are part of our common wealth, what we all share. Protection and empowerment serve the common good. Because of our common wealth, we are all protected and America's empowering infrastructure is available to all. That is a fundamental America value: The common wealth should serve the common good. It benefits everyone.

    Citizens are financially responsible to maintain this common wealth. If we shirked this responsibility, we could not maintain our roads, fund our schools, protect ourselves from military threats, enforce our laws, and so on. Equally importantly, we could not create prosperity for ourselves, because we would have no protection of our intellectual property, no oversight of our markets, no means to enforce our contracts, no way to educate most of our children.

    Several main progressive values support the idea of progressive taxation. One is the belief that the common wealth should be used for the common good. Another is responsibility, the responsibility that citizens have to pay for the benefits we receive from our common wealth. And still another is fairness. These values intertwine on the question of progressive taxation.

    Few people dispute this responsibility at some level. Disagreements generally arise over the amount and the relative apportionment of the responsibility. Differing concepts of fairness drive this debate. While many progressives say it is only fair that those who earn more pay a higher percentage of their earnings as taxes compared to those who have difficulty making ends meet, conservatives respond by asserting that it is unfair to "punish" the financially successful by making them pay more.

    An important point often lost in this debate is an appreciation that the common wealth, which our taxes create and sustain, empowers the wealthy in myriad ways to create their wealth. We call this compound empowerment — the compounded use of the common wealth by corporations, their investors, and other wealthy individuals.

    Consider Bill Gates. He started Microsoft as a college dropout and has become the world's richest person. Though he has undoubtedly benefited from his unusual intelligence and business acumen, he could not have created or sustained his personal wealth without the common wealth. The legal system protected Microsoft's intellectual property and contracts. The tax-supported financial infrastructure enabled him to access capital markets and trade his stock in a market in which investors have confidence. He built his company with many employees educated in public schools and universities. Tax-funded research helped develop computer science and the internet. Trade laws negotiated and enforced by the government protect his ability to sell his products abroad. These are but a few of the ways in which Mr. Gates' accumulation of wealth was empowered by the common wealth and by taxation.

    As Warren Buffet famously observed, he likely couldn't have achieved his financial success had he been born in Bangladesh instead of the United States, because Bangladesh had no banking system and no stock market.

    Ordinary people just drive on the highways; corporations send fleets of trucks. Ordinary people may get a bank loan for their mortgage; corporations borrow money to buy whole companies. Ordinary people rarely use the courts; most of the courts are used for corporate law and contract disputes. Corporations and their investors — those who have accumulated enough money beyond basic needs so they can invest — make much more use, compound use, of the empowering infrastructure provided by everybody's tax money.

    The wealthy have made greater use of the common good—they have been empowered by it in creating their wealth—and thus they have a greater moral obligation to sustain it. They are merely paying their debt to society in arrears and investing in future empowerment.


    TomPaine.com - Hidden Truths Of Progressive Taxes

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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