View Poll Results: Should a multi-billionaire settle for 2 jets instead of 3, 7 homes instead of 10 etc?

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  • Yes (if it means serving the greater good)

    12 24.49%
  • No (no one has the right to decide how much wealth is too much)

    37 75.51%
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Thread: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

  1. #91
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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    PerseWhen did I propose that we should persecute anybody?
    The OP does, taking money from someone just because, is sufficient, (it's back by law enforcement to boot). You're playing games, I don't appreciate it.

    Freedom is a pesky word isn't it? You see, when there is government, certain freedoms are (by definition) removed - anything else would be an absence of government (aka anarchy) which is a myth and doesn't exist.
    Once again, since no one is proposing such myths, you going back once again to the "those don't really exist" argument. Are you not understanding that no one is arguing about myths and "pure freedom", again, just like our little chat about "pure socialism, or pure free market, or absolute truth"? I do realize that some, even mainstream libertarians, do bring up such nonsence...but please inject them into my arguments.

    Democracy allows people to stand up for the rights they believe in so that government can protect those rights
    And I already informed you that a majority rules approach can and does also allow for "tyranny of the majority". Which you did not address with the above, you simply made a general statement about political activism. Understand, tyranny of the majority occurs even if you strictly allow eveyone to stand up for the rights they believe in....is the entire point.

    ... this of course comes at the cost of freedom as every time you tell someone "you can't kill", for example, you are stripping that person's freedom to act in the way they choose, while at the same time protecting others rights to live their lives with a lower chance of being murdered ... do you see what I am getting at?
    Assume I know the basics please. You also appear to be missing the entire point about freedom.
    Once again, if freedom is only valued because of a majority, it doesn't meet any meaningful defintion of freedom.

    If 100 people are free to vote, and 99 vote to hang one, beacuse he has big feet, by your reasoning that would be freedom. I don't care who stands up for his big-feet rights, or not. It doesn't make it a free society in any *meaningful* way. And I do assume you want to have a meaningful discussion.

    As to murder being reasonable to prohibit it's not simply because a majority wants to (and yes a minority does NOT want to!), but because it is a necessary physical premise to being individually free, having ANY rights, having any expression, all fundametnals to the idea of democracy and life, liberty, etc. You can't logically petition for protection from government if you are dead. If you build a hierarchy of fundametnal rights, that's at the top. Likewise, it's protected.

    Individual freedoms always collide with other individual freedoms in society. However, simply saying a majority wins the argument as to which freedoms you observe and which you do not, is your argument. And it's been shown to be absurd.

    You have some other argument to make about this?

  2. #92
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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    If 100 people are free to vote, and 99 vote to hang one, beacuse he has big feet, by your reasoning that would be freedom. I don't care who stands up for his big-feet rights, or not. It doesn't make it a free society in any *meaningful* way. And I do assume you want to have a meaningful discussion.
    I couldn't agree more (and remember, I said that democracy has its problems). Considering we both see that democracy has its problems .. what governmental system would you propose to address those problems without loosing the benefits of democracy?

  3. #93
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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    My OP was not about "forcefully taking money from billionaires, presumably beacuse you feel like it" ... perhaps you should give it another read
    I just read it again. Still looks like you impy that:
    Tax rates on the very wealthy should be raised, because you believe it's a good idea to do so.
    If you have some other implication to what you wrote, please let's not waste time.

    I suggest you read up on some political science literature .. in can help a lot .. just trying to help
    I suggest you refrain from such nonsense. I think your posts look like new-blood to such arguments. Eager like a puppy, playful, well-meaning, but still has a lot to learn. If I had to guess I'd say a student that make very little, and contributes very little to our markets.

    So if we both keep posting little quips like that, it's a waste of time. How about neither of us do so.

  4. #94
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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Should a multi-billionaire be forced to settle for 7 homes instead of 10, 2 private jets instead of 3 etc.?

    Hypothetical situation:

    Meet: Billionaire Bush

    He is a billionaire

    Has 20 homes, 3 private jets, sends his 10 children to the very best private and or ivy league schools, has several concubines, runs several companies whose bottom level employees (the vast majority of his employees) make little above minimum wage, lets larges amounts of money sit in his bank account, many of his companies are hurtful to the earth, many of his companies are diversions and failures meant to avoid paying income tax and so on
    In a free market system, they're free to romp. In a system set up where in there is significant entanglement of market and state and rules set up to keep those billionaires billionaires where as the rest of the people have no such legal recourse, well perhaps they can pay for the laws they influence and the benefitial treatment they receive.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #95
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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I just read it again. Still looks like you impy that:
    Tax rates on the very wealthy should be raised, because you believe it's a good idea to do so
    Actually, if you have read any of my posts, you would know that I do not believe this simply because "it would be a good idea to do so" (LMAO .. you're silly )

    Instead, my reasoning was that doing so as it is better than taxing those who have nothing to tax - of course I support welfare that rewards the poor for moving up the class ladder, which would require government funding, e.g. monetary rewards for making more money (until of course they have brought themselves to a point where they are self-sufficient).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I think your posts look like new-blood to such arguments. Eager like a puppy, playful, well-meaning, but still has a lot to learn.
    Insulting others is not a very good way to argue. jmo ... I'm pretty sure it's not allowed .. not completely sure though, can get back to you on that .. thank you for the well meaning part though
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 07-20-11 at 05:10 PM.

  6. #96
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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Now we're getting somewhere. I do not consider myself a liberal or a conservative .. I, like you, want to see less suffering in the world.
    Would it be safe to say that you are far left of conservative?

    Suffering will always be part of the world and I don't want to get involved in the entire world. My name is not Quixote. My preference is to concentrate on the U.S. I have given money to help relieve AIDS and malaria in Africa, but my focus remains here.

  7. #97
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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Would it be safe to say that you are far left of conservative?

    Suffering will always be part of the world and I don't want to get involved in the entire world. My name is not Quixote. My preference is to concentrate on the U.S. I have given money to help relieve AIDS and malaria in Africa, but my focus remains here.
    That's O.K. if you do not care about suffering ... however, I have met a handful of conservatives that do.

    Oh and just so you know .. caring about others is not the only partisan definer.

    There are many other issues that define one's political stance. You should try googling "what's my political stance" or "political stance calculator" sometime .. maybe take a few quizzes, you may learn something ... it you find one that you really like, let me know, I'm always up for learning knew things about myself
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 07-20-11 at 05:17 PM.

  8. #98
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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    The income tax rates should be reset to those of the Clinton Era....compalin too much and we will go back to the Eisenhower Era. The attitude and greed of the rich is sickening.......
    Enough stupid ranting..
    What we must do is cut waste and the reason behind it...the quality of our people...
    We may be at a point of maxing out where it come to "cutting".
    Education is the answer.
    And tolerance.
    Why did you place your words in what was supposed to be a quote by me? That is truly dishonest. As for the rest of your statement, you are entitled to your less than civil opinion. Have a nice day!

  9. #99
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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    That's O.K. if you do not care about suffering ... however, I have met a handful of conservatives that do.

    Oh and just so you know .. caring about others is not the only partisan definer.

    There are many other issues that define one's political stance. You should try googling "what's my political stance" or "political stance calculator" sometime .. maybe take a few quizzes, you may learn something ... it you find one that you really like, let me know, I'm always up for learning knew things about myself
    Wow! What happened to our friendly discussion? Where in the world did I say that I don't care about suffering. Sheesh! All I said is that I give to relieve suffering in Africa, but my main focus is on the U.S. I cannot take care of the world nor can the United States. I know you have seen our deficit and our debt and surely you agree with me on this. I have taken many political tests or quizes and I always find that I am a conservative.

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    Re: Billionaires: free to romp or responsible to fellow citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Wow! What happened to our friendly discussion? Where in the world did I say that I don't care about suffering.
    You don't care about it the way HE does - and thus, you don't care.
    My ex-wife was like that. Goes a long way to explain the ex- part.

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