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Do You Want Higher Taxes?

Ikari said:
We have granted them several privileges of the individual, particularly for court's sake. However, fundamentally for what a right is; corporations cannot possess them. They are only held by the individual.
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kinda......sorta....maybe....but alright.
 
sangha said:
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

The conviction rate for an individual accused of murdering another individual is higher than 90%. The conviction rate for a corporation that is responsible for the deaths of many individuals is close to 0%

Killing one is a murder; Killing thousands is a statistic
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Tobacco companies have been hit with what? Billions in fines. They have been found liable in court many times. Auto manufacturers have been found guilty many times in the deaths of those who use their product. They have paid out who knows how much. This list could go on forever.

They are simply dealt with differently. Again, I would change that. If a CEO was aware of the problem and let it go, I would personally charge him.
 
Theoretically, corps have no powers because rights are inalienable and endowed by Our Creator. Corporations are man made, and nothing about them is inalienable. However, thanks to the corrupt rightwingers on the Supreme Court, corporations now have the right to finance/bribe politicians.
 
Thunder said:
do you REALLY think there was ever a time when the USA was a purely Capitalist economy?
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That is irrelevant to the discussion. I am saying that the bailout/control of corporations is not a part of capitalist theory.
 
Thunder said:
kinda......sorta....maybe....but alright.
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I think it's an important distinction to make and note. Rights are rights, and can only be possessed by the individual. It's an innate property of humanity. Corporations aren't humans, they're things. Things cannot have rights. We have granted "personhood" in order to make it easier in courts and to have some protection for the individual in the corporation from being directly accountable. But rhetoric has power and I think it's important to make these sorts of distinctions. We shouldn't run around thinking corporations have innate rights the same as humans. They don't.
 
1Perry said:
Tobacco companies have been hit with what? Billions in fines. They have been found liable in court many times. Auto manufacturers have been found guilty many times in the deaths of those who use their product. They have paid out who knows how much. This list could go on forever.

They are simply dealt with differently. Again, I would change that. If a CEO was aware of the problem and let it go, I would personally charge him.
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Corps tend to be punished in civil court, not criminal court. If I had killed as many people as the tobacco corps have, I'd be rotting in jail, and not getting off after paying a fine.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Yes, thank you for clarifying .. there is some accountability, only the consequences are not the same for corporations as they are for people. Thanks for clarifying :) ... I would change that too if I could ... I'm not sure they should have the same rights in the first place .. and if the should ... they certainly should have the same consequences
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I'd agree with this. Other than they have rights as corporations are just groups of people. When they err though they should not be able to hide behind the "corporation".
 
Helvidius said:
That is irrelevant to the discussion. I am saying that the bailout/control of corporations is not a part of capitalist theory.
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And we are saying that your "theory" is nothing more than a myth that has never existed in real life because it is a major FAIL
 
sangha said:
Corps tend to be punished in civil court, not criminal court. If I had killed as many people as the tobacco corps have, I'd be rotting in jail, and not getting off after paying a fine.
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Yes, they are dealt with differently. The statement was that they are not held accountable.
 
sangha said:
Corps tend to be punished in civil court, not criminal court. If I had killed as many people as the tobacco corps have, I'd be rotting in jail, and not getting off after paying a fine.
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Well even though the tobacco corps have paid a lot of money out, the government won't let it die. In fact, when it was getting close to being sued into the history text books, government stepped in to intervene. It makes too much money off of tobacco to let it go away. Government is very addicted to tobacco.

But there certainly are differences in punishment and accoutability with corporations.
 
sangha said:
And we are saying that your "theory" is nothing more than a myth that has never existed in real life because it is a major FAIL
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How can it have failed if it has never been practiced? Free markets have done more to lift people out of poverty than any government could ever dream of doing.
 
Helvidius said:
How can it have failed if it has never been practiced? Free markets have done more to lift people out of poverty than any government could ever dream of doing.
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The same way libertarianism has failed without ever having been practiced --- In the marketplace of ideas

Please tell us when and where this imaginary "free market" lifted anyone up from poverty, and I'll show you a market that the govt is taking part in.
 
Helvidius said:
How can it have failed if it has never been practiced? Free markets have done more to lift people out of poverty than any government could ever dream of doing.
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If free markets have never been practiced, how did they lift people out of poverty?
 
sangha said:
Fair enough. Make that "criminally accountable" and the statement is true
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That is what I would change. Of course we would have to actually pursue it unlike passing Sarbanes-Oxley and then completely ignoring it's even a law.
 
1Perry said:
Tobacco companies have been hit with what? Billions in fines. They have been found liable in court many times. Auto manufacturers have been found guilty many times in the deaths of those who use their product. They have paid out who knows how much. This list could go on forever.

They are simply dealt with differently. Again, I would change that. If a CEO was aware of the problem and let it go, I would personally charge him.
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I think what sangha and I are saying is still true ... they do not pay near as much in percent of their makings as individuals do, they win far more case and they are fined instead of going to jail .... I do not think the consequences are high enough if we are still going to give them the rights of individuals.
 
1Perry said:
That is what I would change. Of course we would have to actually pursue it unlike passing Sarbanes-Oxley and then completely ignoring it's even a law.
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Yep. Laws like that are a scam, designed to decieve the public into thinking "We've got your back"
 
sangha said:
Please tell us when and where this imaginary "free market" lifted anyone up from poverty, and I'll show you a market that the govt is taking part in.
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my grandparents, dad, aunt, and uncle lived in the Alphabet City section of Manhattan during the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's. They were lower-class...but did not live in poverty. And they had come here from Ukraine & Czechoslovakia and became garment workers. I'm not sure how the govt. helped them, except by allowing Unions.
 
Ikari said:
Well even though the tobacco corps have paid a lot of money out, the government won't let it die.
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They are taking in far too much from the companies which would lead to the question, should we not be able to sue them all the same for their complicity?
 
MusicAdventurer said:
I could not agree more .. Capitalism as it is theorized and as capitalists believe it should exit ... has never existed ... also I doubt the supporters of the theory would enjoy living in a world run run by the theory ... what a disaster that would be! We'd end up with one large corporations (or a small handful; i.e. monopolies) producing poor products and poor wages (except for the owners of course). Regulation is a necessary evil (so to speak).
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You need to read up on the idea a bit more. Monopolies exist in a free market if it at all for a very short period of time due to the lack of government.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
I think what sangha and I are saying is still true ... they do not pay near as much in percent of their makings as individuals do, they win far more case and they are fined instead of going to jail .... I do not think the consequences are high enough if we are still going to give them the rights of individuals.
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I've not disagreed with that.
 
1Perry said:
I'd agree with this. Other than they have rights as corporations are just groups of people. When they err though they should not be able to hide behind the "corporation".
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I totally agree with this too ... it is the people running the corporations that hurt others (not the "corporation") and they should be the ones punished
 
Thunder said:
my grandparents, dad, aunt, and uncle lived in the Alphabet City section of Manhattan during the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's. They were lower-class...but did not live in poverty. And they had come here from Ukraine & Czechoslovakia and became garment workers. I'm not sure how the govt. helped them, except by allowing protecting Unions.
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I fixed that for you.
 
Thunder said:
my grandparents, dad, aunt, and uncle lived in the Alphabet City section of Manhattan during the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's. They were lower-class...but did not live in poverty. And they had come here from Ukraine & Czechoslovakia and became garment workers. I'm not sure how the govt. helped them, except by allowing Unions.
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NYC, like the rest of the US, was a regulated economy in the 30's-60's (and beyond) There was a lot of govt involvement in the economy.

And I don't understand why you think the govt allowing unions does not represent a govt involvement in the economy. The US has never had a "free market" economy. From the very beginning of our nation, the govt has been involved in the economy. Even the Constitution got involved in the economy when it made the fed govt assume the debts of the various states. From the very beginning, the US economy required govt bailouts
 
Henrin said:
You need to read up on the idea a bit more. Monopolies exist in a free market if it at all for a very short period of time due to the lack of government.
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You should re-read his post. He didn't say that monopolies don't exist in a free market. He said, in a free market, monopolies will dominate the economy
 
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