Should Republicans agree to Tax Increases.....and commit political suicide?

lpast said:

Theyve already committed suicide...it just hasnt dawned on them yet

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I agree. I'd say its because, among other things, they aren't willing to vote to raise taxes. They're being a**holes, and are screwing the country for political gain, and its pretty obvious. In the meanwhile, the Dem's aren't doing anything to help, because they *****-foot everything they do.

repeter said:

I agree 100%. But that's a very un-libertarian idea.

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I don't see how it's "unlibertarian". We should have controlled the government better prior to this point; but we didn't. This is the natural course of unrestricted government. But there's no such thing as a free lunch and eventually we have to pay for our mistakes. There is going to need to be massive downsizing of government spending; but we may need additional taxes since we allowed government to operate in unrestricted mode for too long. It's called taking responsibility and it's not out of line with libertarian idealism.

Badmutha said:

....you want to lower the deficit.......especially in this economy.........cut spending.......and then cut taxes.

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Why can't you do both at the same time??? There isn't a legitimate reason not to.

Ikari said:

I don't see how it's "unlibertarian". We should have controlled the government better prior to this point; but we didn't. This is the natural course of unrestricted government. But there's no such thing as a free lunch and eventually we have to pay for our mistakes. There is going to need to be massive downsizing of government spending; but we may need additional taxes since we allowed government to operate in unrestricted mode for too long. It's called taking responsibility and it's not out of line with libertarian idealism.

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I see what you're saying, but it still is harming the individual for the the gain of the society. Isn't that against libertarian ideals?

repeter said:

I see what you're saying, but it still is harming the individual for the the gain of the society. Isn't that against libertarian ideals?

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It's a form of coersion which I'd rather do without. But there are realities of the system which must be taken into account. The government was created to serve The People, but they are beholden instead to a small elite. It's our fault as we didn't control it; but there are consequences for our inaction towards the concerns and movements of government. We have to pay for it. Ideally, the government never gets to this point because we watch and constrain it well enough that it operates properly and by the rights and liberties of the individual.

But we all must bear the consequences of our actions, and if we don't like the consequences then we have to change our actions. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

repeter said:

I agree. I'd say its because, among other things, they aren't willing to vote to raise taxes. They're being a**holes, and are screwing the country for political gain, and its pretty obvious. In the meanwhile, the Dem's aren't doing anything to help, because they *****-foot everything they do.

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Yes you and Lpast agree....but you both probably also voted for Barack HusSame Obama--The Most Expensive President in History.......

.....the more Republicans stop Obama and this insanity of Liberalism that has consumed Washington........the more likely they will gain power.

Granted you wont agree........but come back and tell me in 2012.......when Republicans retake the Senate and the Presidency....assuming they dont commit political suicide in the meantime.
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Ikari said:

It's a form of coersion which I'd rather do without. But there are realities of the system which must be taken into account. The government was created to serve The People, but they are beholden instead to a small elite. It's our fault as we didn't control it; but there are consequences for our inaction towards the concerns and movements of government. We have to pay for it. Ideally, the government never gets to this point because we watch and constrain it well enough that it operates properly and by the rights and liberties of the individual.

But we all must bear the consequences of our actions, and if we don't like the consequences then we have to change our actions. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

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Okay, I got you.

repeter said:

Why can't you do both at the same time??? There isn't a legitimate reason not to.

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There is every reason to........for a growing booming economy will solve quite a few of our ills..........

Giving every employer a tax cut/"pay raise".....giving every consumer a tax cut/"pay raise"........is the sure ticket to a growing booming economy.....and a growth in government revenues.
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Badmutha said:

There is every reason to........for a growing booming economy will solve quite a few of our ills..........

Giving every employer a tax cut/"pay raise".....giving every consumer a tax cut/"pay raise"........is the sure ticket to a growing booming economy.....and a growth in government revenues.
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So if we have a zero tax rate, then the government makes like infinite money?

Ikari said:

So if we have a zero tax rate, then the government makes like infinite money?

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....about as much money as a government imposed 100% tax rate.

Two economies........one with a 1% tax rate.........one with a 99% tax rate........

........which one collects more revenues?
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Badmutha said:

There is every reason to........for a growing booming economy will solve quite a few of our ills..........

Giving every employer a tax cut/"pay raise".....giving every consumer a tax cut/"pay raise"........is the sure ticket to a growing booming economy.....and a growth in government revenues.

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Why on earth are you against raising taxes then? It's not like the Republicans are going to raise taxes, and not get massive spending cuts. What they're doing right now isn't political suicide, it's compromise, and the how the political process should always work.

Tell me, why have did you blow this so far out of proportion? They're going to cut spending and raise taxes; the best of both worlds.

repeter said:

Why on earth are you against raising taxes then?

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To raise taxes........is to give a pay cut to every Employer and Consumer to whom it applies.

If you think stealing more from employers is going to create more jobs..........if you think stealing more from We The People will create more consumption.......if you think Unemployment Checks are the best way to create jobs.........Vote Democrat.

It's not like the Republicans are going to raise taxes, and not get massive spending cuts. What they're doing right now isn't political suicide, it's compromise, and the how the political process should always work.

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For the last 50 years "Compromise" and "Bipartisanship" has meant "Doing whatever Democrats want to do"...........

......should Republicans "compromise" with The Kenyan Tyrant and The DNC.......especially on this issue........its clearly political suicide.

Tell me, why have did you blow this so far out of proportion? They're going to cut spending and raise taxes; the best of both worlds.

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Rasing taxes will make this Recession Great.....and The Democrat Party cant bring itself to cut a Cowboy Poetry Contest.......much less anything else. Far from the best of both worlds.........
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Badmutha said:

....about as much money as a government imposed 100% tax rate.

Two economies........one with a 1% tax rate.........one with a 99% tax rate........

........which one collects more revenues?
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Depends on the economy. Certainly for most there is a turnover point. The real problem is that we don't actually know where that global maximum is.

Badmutha said:

To raise taxes........is to give a pay cut to every Employer and Consumer to whom it applies.
If you think stealing more from employers is going to create more jobs..........if you think stealing more from We The People will create more consumption.......if you think Unemployment Checks are the best way to create jobs.........Vote Democrat.
For the last 50 years "Compromise" and "Bipartisanship" has meant "Doing whatever Democrats want to do"...........
......should Republicans "compromise" with The Kenyan Tyrant and The DNC.......especially on this issue........its clearly political suicide.
Rasing taxes will make this Recession Great.....and The Democrat Party cant bring itself to cut a Cowboy Poetry Contest.......much less anything else. Far from the best of both worlds.........

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Dissappointing. You were being rational and reasonable for a moment there...and then you made this post. At least I know you have the ability to post more than hate-filled hyper-partisan rhetoric.

repeter said:

Dissappointing. You were being rational and reasonable for a moment there...and then you made this post. At least I know you have the ability to post more than hate-filled hyper-partisan rhetoric.

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I do believe this post of your signifies your conceding of the argument.....running away with your tail between your legs will confirm it.

WE THE PEOPLE seem to be close to a 100% agreement............CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING..........rationality begins there.

Giving MORE MONEY to a big bloated out of control liberal nanny state government.........and The Most Expensive President in History.........would only be another testament to Insanity.
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What Obama is proposing right now atm is not increasing taxes, it is getting rid of a variety of tax credits and close up loopholes. Increasing taxes would imply that an actual number is added to base tax codes. The real reason the Republicans took the house has little to do with their values and more to do with the last bunch was a lot of indecisive fools. Now we have a bunch of decisive fools, and they have decided to play chicken with the economy along with Obama.

Really the the main differences between Republicans and Democrats at this point is Democrats are willing to discuss cuts something they do not like at all. Republicans do not want to talk about raising revenues in anyway even if it were to only effect people that make bets on the economy such as hedge fund managers, people that literally contribute nothing to the actual products and services they bet on.

Badmutha said:

I do believe this post of your signifies your conceding of the argument.....running away with your tail between your legs will confirm it.

WE THE PEOPLE seem to be close to a 100% agreement............CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING..........rationality begins there.

Giving MORE MONEY to a big bloated out of control liberal nanny state government.........and The Most Expensive President in History.........would only be another testament to Insanity.
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Big and bloated nanny eh? So then you would agree that we should drastically cut the military budget too so it isn't the "nanny" of the world right?

Badmutha said:

I do believe this post of your signifies your conceding of the argument.....running away with your tail between your legs will confirm it.
WE THE PEOPLE seem to be close to a 100% agreement............CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING..........rationality begins there.
Giving MORE MONEY to a big bloated out of control liberal nanny state government.........and The Most Expensive President in History.........would only be another testament to Insanity

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WRITING IN CAPS AND BOLD DOESN'T MAKE YOU ANY LESS IRRATIONAL!!!

You're an interesting person, and I'm curious how you turned out the way you did. Are there any especially traumatic events in your life that might have lead you to think the way you do?

JohnWOlin said:

What Obama is proposing right now atm is not increasing taxes, it is getting rid of a variety of tax credits and close up loopholes. Increasing taxes would imply that an actual number is added to base tax codes. The real reason the Republicans took the house has little to do with their values and more to do with the last bunch was a lot of indecisive fools. Now we have a bunch of decisive fools, and they have decided to play chicken with the economy along with Obama.

Really the the main differences between Republicans and Democrats at this point is Democrats are willing to discuss cuts something they do not like at all. Republicans do not want to talk about raising revenues in anyway even if it were to only effect people that make bets on the economy such as hedge fund managers, people that literally contribute nothing to the actual products and services they bet on.

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This was an extremely refreshing post after all the stuff Badmutha has said in this thread.

No one is committing any kind of "political suicide" by agreeing to increase taxes. Don't be such a demagogue!

There are other core values that Conservatives have forgotten if we follow your logic. For example, what about reducing the size of the Government? It's always been one of the highest priorities in the Republican agenda. Yet none of the last three Republican Presidents were able to achieve any of that. In fact, it seems to me that they're only interested in reducing the Government programs and initiatives they don't like but keeping the ones which serve their interests best. That's kind of hypocritical. Yet nobody points that out. Bush Junior created a massive debt. If he hadn't believed in big Government, he would have never got us in such a massive debt. He used the Government to finance doubtful wars and then to initiate some more than questionable social programs like meaningless school funding that was supposed to teach students the benefits of abstinence. Wow! Imagine that! Quite an achievement! And then he still has the nerve to try and privatize social security. Talk about money well-spent! Yeah, I'm sure Republicans didn't splurge during their terms.

So, as I was saying, you're worried about Republicans losing their identity just because of a tax increase this nation desperately needs, but other faults that have been and are still being committed against your party's core beliefs are quite OK. This sure is a sign some of you are becoming delusional.

Truth is you don't want that tax increase because you are not true patriots and never were. When everything is running smoothly for you, then it's "la vie en rose", I love this country and love everything in it. But as soon as your country needs you to make a small sacrifice, you blame every possible other to avoid paying a tiny fraction of your disproportionately huge income and this Republic suddenly turns, according to you, into a big totalitarian machine from one day to the next. Once we pass August 2, don't ever again mention the word "PATRIOTISM" to me or to the American people. You've never done anything for this nation that has done so much for you, that made you wealthy. You don't deserve to represent America.

Since a similar topic was made I feel what I posted in there could apply in here as well:

Well considering that under Clinton and a Republican house, we were able to cut the deficit in a meaningful way, have higher taxes than we do now, have a budget surplus, and a massive economical expansion I see no problem with doing what Obama wants to now, and that is to phase out certain tax credits and close up loopholes. How will that hurt jobs or demand? I'll give you a great example of how it wouldn't. We used to have a $2000-3000 hybrid tax credit that got phased out, where were you when that went away? Well Toyota still has a hard time keeping up with the demand for Prius, so much so that the end of this year they begin building the Prius and hybrid Camry in Mississippi. Imagine that!

Anyways do that, phase out the bush tax cuts for the rich and once the unemployment is down to 5% and the dollar is up again phase them out for the middle class as well.

In the meantime besides phasing out tax credits and closing loopholes, each part of the government from the military to social services needs to be thoroughly examined, kept just as efficient (If not more) by finding better contracts with private companies (ie military contracts) and other areas. Perfect example is the IRS is saving quite a bit of money as their systems become more computerized, and they are far more efficient than ever before. As long as all services the government provides to its people stay just as good if not better, then cut away.

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JohnWOlin said:

What Obama is proposing right now atm is not increasing taxes, it is getting rid of a variety of tax credits and close up loopholes. Increasing taxes would imply that an actual number is added to base tax codes. The real reason the Republicans took the house has little to do with their values and more to do with the last bunch was a lot of indecisive fools. Now we have a bunch of decisive fools, and they have decided to play chicken with the economy along with Obama.

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Good Gawd.....Are those Obama knee pads wearing out yet?

The last bunch was plenty decisive my willfully ignorant friend.........and they decided to cram excrement sandwhich after excrement sandwhich down the throats of We The People.......

Really the the main differences between Republicans and Democrats at this point is Democrats are willing to discuss cuts something they do not like at all. Republicans do not want to talk about raising revenues in anyway

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And if Democrats raise taxes in this recession.........and revenues fail to increase or barely increase.....WHAT THEN?

.....more tax increases of course......

even if it were to only effect people that make bets on the economy such as hedge fund managers, people that literally contribute nothing to the actual products and services they bet on.

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Kind of like every bureaucrat in Washington? Kind of like every government agency?
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JohnWOlin said:

Big and bloated nanny eh? So then you would agree that we should drastically cut the military budget too so it isn't the "nanny" of the world right?

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Military spending has to be cut as well.........
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Badmutha said:

Good Gawd.....Are those Obama knee pads wearing out yet?

The last bunch was plenty decisive my willfully ignorant friend.........and they decided to cram excrement sandwhich after excrement sandwhich down the throats of We The People.......
And if Democrats raise taxes in this recession.........and revenues fail to increase or barely increase.....WHAT THEN?
.....more tax increases of course......
Kind of like every bureaucrat in Washington? Kind of like every government agency?

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I hope you understand that nothing you say has any substance, logic, rationality, or sanity behind it.

repeter said:

WRITING IN CAPS AND BOLD DOESN'T MAKE YOU ANY LESS IRRATIONAL!!!

You're an interesting person, and I'm curious how you turned out the way you did. Are there any especially traumatic events in your life that might have lead you to think the way you do?

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I started a business in the Most Business Unfriendly Country in the world.........

I hired poeple in the Most Employer Unfriendly Country in the world........

I started paying outrageous taxes with my checkbook.......

.........and as it would happen....as it has happened....with virtually everyone that tread the steps I now take and those that walk in the footseps I laid........you see the reality of statism......you see that Liberalism is the complete lie and utter fraud it has always been.
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