Do you want children?

BDBoop said:

How so, "treated more fairly in their health care?"

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Much easier to get sterilized, mostly. It's pretty much a two-visit process for men, it seems. For women it's a years-long nightmare.

SheWolf said:

I think you are assuming a lot... Let's just say I don't have kids, that doesn't mean I'll die old and alone. I have nieces that I am very close to, and if I didn't have children I'd leave everything to them. I am close to them, and I know they'd care for me.

Instead of arguing what the government can and can't do, you should look at from the POV of the individual, the person, because people are capable of doing the right thing in the absence of government... The government doesn't and cannot force anybody to show compassion to you when you are dying. The government just makes it more affordable.

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Very true.

One reason that I am fine about not having children of my own is because I think that even though people have parents they could also use mentors. And one group that I think really needs mentoring the most are those 20-somethings who are now out on their own but don't have much in the way of education or experience and so still need guidance.

Have you ever seen someone talk to their parents and then utterly dismiss what their parents say but then someone else could say the same thing and that person will give careful and due consideration? I can understand that since people are used to parents telling them what to do all their lives, so they may dismiss it automatically as "dad just being dad and mom just being mom." But when someone who doesn't have that parental attachment tells them something they may consider it more.

That's why I'd like mentoring to be more important in this country, especially, as I said, to young adults.

BDBoop said:

I have a friend who is not only child free, but both her brothers are as well. Why? Because her parents purely ****ed up just that badly.

Not everything is black, white, and knowable.

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My brother doesn't have kids because he can't, and he is happy...

tessaesque said:

I don't understand why threads like this always have to turn into the non-parental types vs. the parental types. If you don't want kids, fine. If you do want kids, fine. But neither side is superior to the other on the premise of those desires alone. Seriously.

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I don't get it either... It seems like the people who have kids are insulted by others not wanting kids.

cpwill said:

:shrug: if those who didn't want to have kids were willing to sign over any future obligations they would want to put on my kids to support them, that would be fine.

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Do your kids go to public schools, will they drive on public streets, will they vote, will they go to the public library? If so, we are all attributing to them. You're argument is ridiculous. Oh, and your in the military, so all of us taxpayers are practically feeding them and paying their medical bills.

BDBoop said:

Somehow, I'm just having trouble dealing with the fact that you've got your nose that far up anybody else's business, that you honest-to-god believe you have some say in whether they choose to remain childfree, and to cast aspersions on them for making that choice.

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He thinks women should be the sole caretaker of children too, and the men should work. He says mothers naturally love their children more than the father, and said it was true in his own case. He has a very strange view of the family dynamic and gender roles regarding the issue.

MistressNomad said:

Much easier to get sterilized, mostly. It's pretty much a two-visit process for men, it seems. For women it's a years-long nightmare.

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Makes sense. Too bad the doctors who 'get it' aren't in a database of some sort for ease of locating.

cpwill said:

..

given that they are spending about 12-15 hours a day of their day raising the next generation, I would like to see your numbers if you are outperfoming them. that's impressive.

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so you think working, childless women are less valuable to society?

SheWolf said:

My brother doesn't have kids because he can't, and he is happy...

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I see said people as a form of empty nesters, only their nests were never full. My friend and I are on the same page now, since she never gave birth, and my only bonly is 30. We take Thelma and Louise trips.

BDBoop said:

Makes sense. Too bad the doctors who 'get it' aren't in a database of some sort for ease of locating.

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Such databases do exist, though they could use some re-orgnanization and updating.

SheWolf said:

He thinks women should be the sole caretaker of children too, and the men should work. He says mothers naturally love their children more than the father, and said it was true in his own case. He has a very strange view of the family dynamic and gender roles regarding the issue.

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Ah. I know we're all special snowflakes - everybody makes the decision that is best for them. I just think they need to remember the "BEST FOR THEM" bit and leave everybody else the hell alone.

cpwill said:

I'm not really sure how that effects the math one way or the other. lower the birthrate below 2.1 and your society will become older and smaller over time; eventually getting to the point where a smaller number of younger people are over taxed to provide support for a large number of older people, with the inevitable result being that they become impoverished, are unable to support that burden of spending, and the entitlements are suddenly changed on the elderly. This is happening in Greece (which has had a very low birthrate for some time now) as we speak - there aren't enough young people to pay for the retirees, and so the retirees are being told they will have to eat large cuts to their benefits. Lower the birthrate below 1.8, and (historically) your society will cease to exist.

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A lot of countries are experiencing the same problems, but it's not my duty, as a woman, to go out and get pregnant. Their are many reasons why people don't have kids... some just aren't fit to parent, some don't like kids, some can't have them, but the birth rate is dropping because costs are increasing in this country and middle class people can't afford to have 3 to 4 kids now. Wages are stagnant and raising kids is ****ing expensive. The cost of medicine is freaking high in this country...

People have to work twice as hard to have anything nice. Everybody I work with puts in long hours.

Maybe if you tried to focus on closing the income gap and getting wages higher, people would have more kids because they could afford more children.

SheWolf said:

People have to work twice as hard to have anything nice. Everybody I work with puts in long hours.

Maybe if you tried to focus on closing the income gap and getting wages higher, people would have more kids because they could afford more children.

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That's another reason why I don't want to have children. I know my earnings wouldn't be enough to pay for them. It's not easy to have a child when your income is barely enough for yourself. And that doesn't count other dependents a person may have, such as their parents.

BDBoop said:

I wonder; does anybody care that George Clooney didn't choose fatherhood? Or is it just the women that are judged?

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Yeah I was wondering if some people can respect a childless woman or not...

Apparently so!

Amazon.com: Famous Childless Women

My favorite lady on the planet made the list. Betty White.

The list author says: "I wrote this because I want ppl to see that you can become famous or have worth without becoming a mother. Too, infertile women may look deeper into this list and think of ways to validate themselves without having children. I also wrote a list on bachelors and thought of a somewhat female equivalent. For real, I or many others could write a list on famous single mothers if I or we wanted. This list has MANY women who are or were suspected of being lesbian or bisexual. I may know more about these women than the bios of straight women. But I'm not trying to say that lesbian = childless or childless = lesbian. But then again, maybe straight women are more likely to become mothers as a result of straight sex."

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From an interview with Betty:

Lopate: You've never had children and you write that you're not a big believer in being able to do both -- having a career and being a mother.

White: But I meant I know a lot of girls who do that very successfully. I know myself too well that I'm so compulsive I would not to justice to them.

Lopate: Because there are a number of people who've talked about achieving that balance: Michelle Obama, Meredith Viera, Tina Fey --

White: Meryl Streep.

Lopate: They've been able to pull it off. ...

White: Yes, but that's, that's -- they know themselves well enough to know they can accomplish it. I know myself well enough to know I would feel guilt about neglecting the children every time I'd go to work.

Lopate: So the career wound up taking precedence --

White: And I've never regretted it.

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Betty White is greener than you (and a GINK role model too) | Grist

samsmart said:

Very true.

One reason that I am fine about not having children of my own is because I think that even though people have parents they could also use mentors. And one group that I think really needs mentoring the most are those 20-somethings who are now out on their own but don't have much in the way of education or experience and so still need guidance.

Have you ever seen someone talk to their parents and then utterly dismiss what their parents say but then someone else could say the same thing and that person will give careful and due consideration? I can understand that since people are used to parents telling them what to do all their lives, so they may dismiss it automatically as "dad just being dad and mom just being mom." But when someone who doesn't have that parental attachment tells them something they may consider it more.

That's why I'd like mentoring to be more important in this country, especially, as I said, to young adults.

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That's true... People can be close and actually care about each other and not be blood related. You see a lot of that in good churches, synagogues, mosques, and religious groups... some of them are like families and will help each other. You also have you clubs and things like amvets, bike clubs, ethnic clubs and societies, etc. If you don't have a family, chances are you have good friends and a good network structure.

BDBoop said:

I see said people as a form of empty nesters, only their nests were never full. My friend and I are on the same page now, since she never gave birth, and my only bonly is 30. We take Thelma and Louise trips.

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Well my brother is a very good member of his society... He has recognition for his work too, so cpwill is just kidding himself when he says childless people are contributing less to society for not having kids.

SheWolf said:

Well my brother is a very good member of his society... He has recognition for his work too, so cpwill is just kidding himself when he says childless people are contributing less to society for not having kids.

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If I go into much more detail as to what an amazing, wonderful woman my best friend is, people will start suggesting I marry her. So - yeah. His statements on that front are baseless.

BDBoop said:

Apparently so!

Amazon.com: Famous Childless Women

My favorite lady on the planet made the list. Betty White.

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Mother Theresa is on that list... That *****! :2mad:

SheWolf said:

That's true... People can be close and actually care about each other and not be blood related. You see a lot of that in good churches, synagogues, mosques, and religious groups... some of them are like families and will help each other. You also have you clubs and things like amvets, bike clubs, ethnic clubs and societies, etc. If you don't have a family, chances are you have good friends and a good network structure.

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Nowadays, you're also finding it at comic book shops, D&D troupes, video game guilds, and online forums as well.

samsmart said:

Nowadays, you're also finding it at comic book shops, D&D troupes, video game guilds, and online forums as well.

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That is true... I have experienced it with game guilds myself

MistressNomad said:

It's unavoidable. I'm assuming you discovered your partner was pregnant fairly early on. You can't possibly ask the child what they want. You MUST make a decision based on what YOU want. It is inherently selfish.

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the decision at that point was already made - the kid was here. :shrug: not that it's terribly pertinent to the discussion - the point being that parenthood is inherently sacrificial, not selfish.

Expecting someone to take care of you is somewhat greater in scope than expecting decent manners. Especially since no one asked them if they'd like to deal with that expectation in the first place.

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so how do you then justify expecting others' children to take care of you?

[quoe]The math is not that catastrophic in the long run[/quote]

in fact it is. generally speaking, non breeding cultures will be replaced by breeding ones. care to place a wager on how individual human rights will be effected once unassimilated Muslims from places like Pakistan become powerful voting blocs in Europe? the culture that isn't replacing itself right now is (broadly) what we know as The West. so if you like things that The West has come up with and promulgated - representative society, individual rights, equality between the genders, abolition of slavery, free speech, etc - then you may consider it rather problematic "in the long run" that currently it is slated to cease existing.

And a lot of people would argue it's a good thing.

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then they should read more history.

cpwill said:

so what happens is the average age of a society increases, until there aren't enough young to take care of all the elderly, and the state is no longer collecting enough resources to step in.

those without children and without beau-coup money will be abandoned, though incrementally.

Greece, for example, as I recall, has the lowest birthrate in the EU. Though Italy is not too far behind.

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hey, will you lookit that!


European Council President Herman Van Rompuy has called an emergency meeting of top officials dealing with the euro zone debt crisis for Monday morning, reflecting concern that the crisis could spread to Italy, the region's third largest economy


Greece and Italy (and much of the rest of Europe, who is only a little bit behind, dependent on the generosity of their retirement entitlements) aren't going to be solved with a bail-out because their problems are structural and inherent to their demographics. thats why you see the riots in Greece - people are being told that the income they depend upon (since they have no offspring, or only one) for survival is getting slashed.


that is what is going to happen here unless we get smart and get smart very soon.

Damn, SheWolf was bang-on! So it's an issue of out-breeding those dirty towel-heads, eh? Guess what. I really don't care what color the majority of people in this country are. And Arab people are not as scary here in the West as they seem to be in your imagination. They tend to be... darker Westerners.

Oh please. While it's true raising kids requires sacrifice, every life path requires sacrifice, and there is no unselfish reason to have them, let alone pit expectations upon them. You're not doing anything valiant by puttering along the biological script. And the only way you could even be considered to be doing something noble is if you take credit for your childrens' accomplishments. Which is not only fallacious, but extremely egotistical.

I am not arguing the moral superiority of either side, but rather that there is none on either side. What you do with your gonads is quite beside the point of what kind of person you are and what kind of life you lived.

Again, it's not expecting "someone else's children" to pay for me if I've been paying for it my whole life. That is ridiculous.

Yes, of course, all of Greece's problems come from the birth rate. If they would just breed beyond their means everything would be perfect.

Here's the thing about people who would regard it as a good thing: history is WHY they regard it as a good thing. At the root of it all, there isn't a deeper logic behind "the race must continue." It's a biological drive. It has no reason and no meaning. That leaves its validity open to interpretation. Some people think it has no validity.

Others, like me, simply don't care that much about it and don't view it as terribly important. I have no "obligation" to breed for the Fatherland. Please.

I'm glad you've given up the argument that the childless surpass us breeders in intelligence.