Do you want children?

samsmart said:

I don't currently have any kids, and I'm not currently planning to have any.

I'm not married and at this moment not really dating. And I absolutely refuse to bring another life into this world until I'm sure me and my significant other are stable enough to provide for the child what he or her needs.

Until then, I'm not going to angst over the fact that I'm not in that position.

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First, bravo for being conscientious about it.

Second, can I just say I love your sig? :lol:

It could be a denial that you truly do not lack those needs, but rather don't realize you have them yet. I'm not saying this is true in your case, but it was in mine. I've made all of the same arguments you've made in this forum on this particular subject. And yet after an unexpected pregnancy, I felt different. Most people in your position likely do change on that subject. But really, how do I know what he meant?

evanescence said:

It could be a denial that you truly do not lack those needs, but rather don't realize you have them yet. I'm not saying this is true in your case, but it was in mine. I've made all of the same arguments you've made in this forum on this particular subject. And yet after an unexpected pregnancy, I felt different. Most people in your position likely do change on that subject. But really, how do I know what he meant?

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Arm-chair psychology, eh? Or maybe, just maybe, I have different needs than you?

Lots of people DON'T change their mind. And even lots of people who LIKE kids and WANT kids and HAVE kids hated pregnancy, and viewed it as an uncomfortable sacrifice to obtain a desirable end-result. I've read accounts of loving mothers on this very site who described pregnancy as feeling like there was a parasitic alien inside them.

And that's exactly it. You feel however you feel about it. I'm not you, I don't get how you feel, and I don't have to. Because that's your deal, not mine. I'm not about to tell you that you just "don't know yourself." I'm going to take your word for it.

Why can't you afford me the same courtesy? And please don't make me arm-chair psychoanalyze some of things you've said about raising kids, because it really does make it seem like you may fit into the category I described earlier.

MistressNomad said:

Arm-chair psychology, eh? Or maybe, just maybe, I have different needs than you?

Lots of people DON'T change their mind. And even lots of people who LIKE kids and WANT kids and HAVE kids hated pregnancy, and viewed it as an uncomfortable sacrifice to obtain a desirable end-result. I've read accounts of loving mothers on this very site who described pregnancy as feeling like there was a parasitic alien inside them.

And that's exactly it. You feel however you feel about it. I'm not you, I don't get how you feel, and I don't have to. Because that's your deal, not mine. I'm not about to tell you that you just "don't know yourself." I'm going to take your word for it.

Why can't you afford me the same courtesy? And please don't make me arm-chair psychoanalyze some of things you've said about raising kids, because it really does make it seem like you may fit into the category I described earlier.

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Calm down. I never said you had the same needs as me. Never even implied it. See?

evanescence said:

It could be a denial that you truly do not lack those needs, but rather don't realize you have them yet. I'm not saying this is true in your case, but it was in mine. I've made all of the same arguments you've made in this forum on this particular subject. And yet after an unexpected pregnancy, I felt different. Most people in your position likely do change on that subject. But really, how do I know what he meant?

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You asked about JohnWOlin's post, remember?

And pregnancy sort of is like having a parasite inside. It's often uncomfortable and inconvenient. I am well aware. But it is also an amazing experience in many ways, but I wont bore you with those unwanted details. I can see this subject offends you.

That is very clear double-speak. "I'm not saying YOU are a selfish jerk, I'm just saying you probably are." "I'm not saying YOU don't know yourself, but since I changed my mind that means you will too." Please.

I hear this kind of crap all the time, and it's always the same.

MistressNomad said:

What if someone has things they'd rather be doing in life? Is pumping out kids the only way you see for people to contribute? How about the considerable trouble and cost of other types of great contribution? Because most of the time, that's why the childfree don't have kids - because it takes away from the time they have to dedicate to doing other things.

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that is correct - they don't have kids because it would take time and resources away from other things. but those other things are usually centered around themselves. they are unwilling for their lives to cease being centered around themselves and become centered around someone else. I'm sure you can come up with an outlier or two - but the "I can't have kids because I'm too busy trying to cure cancer" ranks are fairly thin. And yes, every time you lower the birthrate, you lower the birthrate. the numbers do not care why you do it.

They do? I guess that's why nursing homes are springing up left and right, eh?

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:shrug: sort of - the rise of nursing homes is more a result of increased wealth in the American population.

Bringing another human being into the world with the automatic expectation of how they will spend the most productive years of their life is not only selfish, but it's a great way for you to wind up screwed by not planning around the fact that maybe, just maybe, they have their own ideas of what they want to do with their lives?

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nope. for example; I plan on my boys spending the most productive years of their lives actually working at something rather than (say) murdering people and stealing their goods. I will thus raise them to have good work ethics and not murder people. I intend for my boys to live lives that are relatively at peace with their neighbor, and so I will teach them patience and wisdom (as best I can). I intend for them to be the kind of men who give to others, and so I will teach them to do so with my example and with their allowances. I intend for them to marry well, and so I will raise them with an example of how a husband should love and honor his wife. I want them to be good fathers, and so I will struggle to show them the best example in that as well. My folks took care of me for 22 years (all the way through college - and still help me with guidance, counsel, and so forth); and I intend to catch them on the back side; and I will teach my boys to do the same. If they are not the kind of men who take care of their family, then I have probably raised them wrong.

Sounds like the same sort of imaginary "Kodak moment" that makes people who shouldn't have kids wind up with them in the first place.

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nope. just people being people and families being families. most important building block of society, you know.

No one is. Just saying people need to make better plans than "Oh, I can just force another autonomous person to do it." And also that I would personally not be interested in being taken care of. But that is just me.

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the only people talking about forcing other autonomous persons to take care of them are those arguing that 'other people's kids" can be made to do it by the government through taxation.

cpwill said:

that is correct - they don't have kids because it would take time and resources away from other things.

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I have a friend who is not only child free, but both her brothers are as well. Why? Because her parents purely ****ed up just that badly.

Not everything is black, white, and knowable.

I don't understand why threads like this always have to turn into the non-parental types vs. the parental types. If you don't want kids, fine. If you do want kids, fine. But neither side is superior to the other on the premise of those desires alone. Seriously.

tessaesque said:

I don't understand why threads like this always have to turn into the non-parental types vs. the parental types. If you don't want kids, fine. If you do want kids, fine. But neither side is superior to the other on the premise of those desires alone. Seriously.

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:shrug: if those who didn't want to have kids were willing to sign over any future obligations they would want to put on my kids to support them, that would be fine.

BDBoop said:

I have a friend who is not only child free, but both her brothers are as well. Why? Because her parents purely ****ed up just that badly.

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:shrug: and that can happen too, but I would doubt that statistically we are talking about a significant portion of the populace here. one of my good friends on the island was raised by a single mother who was an abusive alcoholic. he is a terrific dad.

tessaesque said:

I don't understand why threads like this always have to turn into the non-parental types vs. the parental types. If you don't want kids, fine. If you do want kids, fine. But neither side is superior to the other on the premise of those desires alone. Seriously.

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I agree essentially. It's just that some people have this annoying air of superiority. And it stinks.

cpwill said:

:shrug: if those who didn't want to have kids were willing to sign over any future obligations they would want to put on my kids to support them, that would be fine.



:shrug: and that can happen too, but I would doubt that statistically we are talking about a significant portion of the populace here. one of my good friends on the island was raised by a single mother who was an abusive alcoholic. he is a terrific dad.

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Somehow, I'm just having trouble dealing with the fact that you've got your nose that far up anybody else's business, that you honest-to-god believe you have some say in whether they choose to remain childfree, and to cast aspersions on them for making that choice.

Of course, right? Childfree people never do anything for anyone else, because only a selfish person wouldn't want children.

Wait... why do you people have kids again?

Having kids is a completely selfish decision. So is not having them. In that respect, they're on even terms. What the individual winds up doing in other areas of there life is unrelated to whether or not they have kids. Again, I'm willing to bet I take a more active role in the world around me than a lot of the people here whining about how selfish the childfree are. And if you try to tell me there aren't lots of very selfish parents around, I'm going to have one hell of a laugh.

You display that selfishness by having a self-serving expectation for the life you brought into the world for your own selfish reasons. Hint: Anything starting with "I want..." is a selfish reason.

The majority of my major reasons start with "I want..." as well. But at least I take ownership of my future. I will also say that at least you appear to put some amount of importance on whether or not you deserve that service from your children. But a lot of parents don't.

It doesn't count as "other people's kids" taking care of them if the people who get that government help have been paying for it their entire lives. The fact that the government pilfers the funds they have been putting money into for 40+ years is not their fault.

evanescence said:

I agree essentially. It's just that some people have this annoying air of superiority. And it stinks.

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Yes, they do. Like saying the childfree are in "denial." It really does stink.

MistressNomad said:

Yes, they do. Like saying the childfree are in "denial." It really does stink.

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Or maybe it's just a matter of not understanding something you don't related to. And of course, if that's the case, being confrontational is no way to make yourself heard. Applicable to all parties, btw.

BDBoop said:

Somehow, I'm just having trouble dealing with the fact that you've got your nose that far up anybody else's business, that you honest-to-god believe you have some say in whether they choose to remain childfree, and to cast aspersions on them for making that choice.

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I haven't said one way or the other that I can tell someone whether or not they individually should have kids. I say it's bad for society that a large percent of our populace is choosing to do so, or choosing to only have one child. We're living with the Me Generation, and that has torn at our social fabric in all kinds of damaging ways.

cpwill said:

I haven't said one way or the other that I can tell someone whether or not they individually should have kids. I say it's bad for society that a large percent of our populace is choosing to do so, or choosing to only have one child. We're living with the Me Generation, and that has torn at our social fabric in all kinds of damaging ways.

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Interesting, coming from such a staunch "personal responsibility" conservative.

Most people will always want kids. However, now that women are free to pursue their own careers and lives, it is almost expected that we are experiencing a shrinking of the birth rate. At some point, that will probably stabilize.

Your accusation that the childfree are somehow more selfish than parents is absurd for more reasons than I could probably fit in a single post. Any decision regarding procreation is selfish.

tessaesque said:

Or maybe it's just a matter of not understanding something you don't related to. And of course, if that's the case, being confrontational is no way to make yourself heard. Applicable to all parties, btw.

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That I have empathy for. When John asked about how the childfree think, I answered in the most honest way I could, even including that I represent a small faction within that group, and here's what most of the childfree think. I appreciated that question.

The freak-out that ensued after I answered it, as though me not saying that we're all a bunch of damaged jerks and that's why we're childfree was a personal insult for him deciding to be a parent, is confrontational. I thought he had an honest curiosity. I was wrong.

cpwill said:

I haven't said one way or the other that I can tell someone whether or not they individually should have kids. I say it's bad for society that a large percent of our populace is choosing to do so, or choosing to only have one child. We're living with the Me Generation, and that has torn at our social fabric in all kinds of damaging ways.

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And I completely disagree. Parenthood has never been and is not now "one size fits all." It's a CHOICE. A very personal choice.

MistressNomad said:

Of course, right? Childfree people never do anything for anyone else, because only a selfish person wouldn't want children.

Wait... why do you people have kids again?

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.....well..... your mother should really have covered this with you.... but when a man and a woman love each other very much..... :lol:

Having kids is a completely selfish decision

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that is incorrect. for our first child, for example, it wasn't a decision at all (surprise!). and if you'd asked us prior to if we wanted to get pregnant we would have told you Hell No - we had Things To Do.

So is not having them. In that respect, they're on even terms. What the individual winds up doing in other areas of there life is unrelated to whether or not they have kids. Again, I'm willing to bet I take a more active role in the world around me than a lot of the people here whining about how selfish the childfree are.

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given that they are spending about 12-15 hours a day of their day raising the next generation, I would like to see your numbers if you are outperfoming them. that's impressive.

You display that selfishness by having a self-serving expectation for the life you brought into the world for your own selfish reasons. Hint: Anything starting with "I want..." is a selfish reason.

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looks like you didn't read the post. wanting my boys to be well-adjusted, mature members of society who are able to love and be loved in return? yeah, not selfish of me to dedicate 20 years of my life, sleepless nights, and endless frustration to give that to them.

we didnt' have kids "so they would take care of us in our old age". but they probably will just as we are going to help our folks. and those who dont have kids will not have them to lean on when and if the entitlement system goes underwater due to the fact that not enough people have had kids.

It doesn't count as "other people's kids" taking care of them if the people who get that government help have been paying for it their entire lives.

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in fact it does because that is the reality of the situation. whether you think that is "fair" or not is immaterial. reform suggestions to make this not the case have been met uniformly with heads-rotating-180-degrees-spewing-vomit from your side of the political aisle.

The fact that the government pilfers the funds they have been putting money into for 40+ years is not their fault.

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actually since they elected the bastards who did it.... it is Democracy ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

BDBoop said:

And I completely disagree. Parenthood has never been and is not now "one size fits all." It's a CHOICE. A very personal choice.

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I'm not really sure how that effects the math one way or the other. lower the birthrate below 2.1 and your society will become older and smaller over time; eventually getting to the point where a smaller number of younger people are over taxed to provide support for a large number of older people, with the inevitable result being that they become impoverished, are unable to support that burden of spending, and the entitlements are suddenly changed on the elderly. This is happening in Greece (which has had a very low birthrate for some time now) as we speak - there aren't enough young people to pay for the retirees, and so the retirees are being told they will have to eat large cuts to their benefits. Lower the birthrate below 1.8, and (historically) your society will cease to exist.

Can't we talk about how adorable this is, instead of the back and forth bitterness?:

Yeah, but you went into it with the expectation of getting something in return. That is selfish. It's good that at least you're attempting to earn it, but the expectation is still very selfish.

There are a lot of people who decide to be childfree for environmental reasons. Not having kids is the single biggest way you can reign in your carbon footprint. Or genetic reasons. Perhaps they have something they don't want to pass on. Or simply the knowledge that they wouldn't make good parents.

You're making the automatic assumption that all reproduction is automatically good for society. It isn't. This is shown in your own ethos by the contempt you have for people on public assistance.

:shrug: i don't have contempt for people on public assistance - i consider it wrong to drain public assistance if one does not need it, and I hold that decision in contempt.

nor did i go into parenthood for selfish reasons - quite the opposite. I expect my boys to take care of me in my older years the same way I expect the person I greet at the door to say "hey" back - because it's what good people do. I would suspect people who give up children "to reduce their carbon footprint"; though no doubt you get some who do.

however, whatever you reason; it doesn't change the math.

Both the wife and I don't want kids and frankly, it's a little late for us to start even if we wanted to. At 42 - it would be difficult at best and I'd already be 62 when they are in college... not something I'd relish actually. Besides that, I just don't see an upside to bringing kids up in this current economic / world environment. In the mid 80's when I was young and the fall of Communism blablabla... I did think about it and considered it but just didn't have the right person. Now that I've got the right person, things have changed - I think kids born today will have a helluva time in 30-50 years from now and I don't want to bring kids into the world. No thanks.