View Poll Results: Where there racists in 1776? (read post first)

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Thread: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

  1. #41
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You keep making the same mistake. You are using a modern-day definition of racism, which of course, some of the founding fathers were. Then you assume that the modern definition is the only definition, which is plainly wrong. The people living in 1776 plainly wouldn't have considered themselves racist because what they believed was typical of their day. Trying to take modern-day sensibilities and imposing them on people of the past is a waste of time, just as it will be when people of the future look at how we conduct ourselves and declare us to be something-ist. What's the point?
    If X = "belief in the superiority of certain races", then someone who believes in the superiority of his race is X. It's that simple.

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    If X = "belief in the superiority of certain races", then someone who believes in the superiority of his race is X. It's that simple.
    Fine, I didn't disagree with you. I just pointed out that X has not always meant that, nor will it probably always mean that. Funny how definitions and ideas change over time.
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Fine, I didn't disagree with you. I just pointed out that X has not always meant that, nor will it probably always mean that. Funny how definitions and ideas change over time.
    Words and definitions change over time, yes. But in this context, racist means racist. The WORD "racism" didn't mean something different back in 1776 (because it didn't mean anything at all, since the word hadn't been coined yet, the earliest recorded use of the word "racism" was in 1936 according to the OED). The definition of racist has for the most part changed little since then, except for political hacks on both sides who have twisted its meaning to mean whatever they don't like.

    None of this takes away from the fact that people back then were, indeed, racists.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    That's not what I'm trying to argue. Slavery doesn't enter into my argument. I'm saying the country was racist because the vast majority of Americans held racist views (racist, meaning the belief that the races were FUNDAMENTALLY different and that whites were superior). These were views held by almost everyone at the time, regardless of whether or not they supported slavery. And that is what made the country racist.
    Darwin promoted the idea that there were savage people. MOST people from around the world including the middle east identified 'savages' as people that existed culturally far longer but still lived a (for lack of a better word) 'savage' existence. They didnt identify whites or Europeans as superior. They didnt identify as an example Egyptians as inferior. People that knew there were other races and knew about dark skinned people from developed and developing worlds understood that not all blacks were the same and certainly not savages. Those that DIDNT know about the existence of other cultures knew there were 'savages' as they had been taught. Thats not a racist philosophy...its an expression of their current societal development. Why people feel the need to project their modern knowledge enhanced with the blessings of many peoples LIFETIMES of experience on those that had little if any practical education is beyond me.

  5. #45
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    I don't know how anyone could vote that there wasn't racism in 1776. Racism has been around for a long, long time. It would be remarkable indeed if there had somehow been the slavery of blacks without there being any racism.

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    The problem is that we're not talking about right vs. wrong. We're talking about racist vs. non-racist and racism has a very morality-neutral definition. You can be racist and not advanced, you can be racist and normal in your thought process. The scientific basis for racism and the morality of it are completely separate from whether or not racism exists.
    The problem is you insist on judging a people from centuries ago with todays standard. Good lord dood...most of the people back in the 1700s had never SEEN a black person before. Many that knew of slavery stood against it. That you have the privelege of being able to judge them racist only occurs because those people from that era CHANGED a society.

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    I don't know how anyone could vote that there wasn't racism in 1776. Racism has been around for a long, long time. It would be remarkable indeed if there had somehow been the slavery of blacks without there being any racism.
    Including in Africa, where blacks enslaved blacks long before there was an America, during its formation, and...oh yeah...today?

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Darwin promoted the idea that there were savage people. MOST people from around the world including the middle east identified 'savages' as people that existed culturally far longer but still lived a (for lack of a better word) 'savage' existence. They didnt identify whites or Europeans as superior. They didnt identify as an example Egyptians as inferior. People that knew there were other races and knew about dark skinned people from developed and developing worlds understood that not all blacks were the same and certainly not savages. Those that DIDNT know about the existence of other cultures knew there were 'savages' as they had been taught. Thats not a racist philosophy...its an expression of their current societal development. Why people feel the need to project their modern knowledge enhanced with the blessings of many peoples LIFETIMES of experience on those that had little if any practical education is beyond me.
    Disagree. Racism existed back then, as TPD has shown back in the other thread. Any attempt to twist it any other way is engaging in revisionist history.

    Your argument is like saying just because a white guy thinks one black guy is "articulate," he is therefore not a racist.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The problem is you insist on judging a people from centuries ago with todays standard. Good lord dood...most of the people back in the 1700s had never SEEN a black person before. Many that knew of slavery stood against it. That you have the privelege of being able to judge them racist only occurs because those people from that era CHANGED a society.
    If X = "belief in the superiority of certain races", then someone who believes in the superiority of his race is X. It's that simple.

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    "Modern-day slaves can be found laboring as servants or concubines in Sudan, as child "carpet slaves" in India, or as cane-cutters in Haiti and southern Pakistan, to name but a few instances. According to Anti-Slavery International, the world's oldest human rights organization, there are currently over 20 million people in bondage.
    Slave Trading on Africa's West Coast
    The slave trade in Africa was officially banned in the early 1880s, but forced labor continues to be practiced in West and Central Africa today. UNICEF estimates that 200,000 children from this region are sold into slavery each year. Many of these children are from Benin and Togo, and are sold into the domestic, agricultural, and sex industries of wealthier, neighboring countries such as Nigeria and Gabon.
    UNICEF estimates that 200,000 children from West and Central Africa are sold into slavery each year.
    The most recent incident involved the MV Etireno, which was refused from ports in Gabon and Cameroon. When the ship reached Cotonou, Benin, in April, 2001, police began an investigation of the captain and crew. More adults than children were believed to be aboard.
    Chattel slavery in Sudan
    The enslavement of the Dinkas in southern Sudan may be the most horrific and well-known example of contemporary slavery. According to 1993 U.S. State Department estimates, up to 90,000 blacks are owned by North African Arabs, and often sold as property in a thriving slave trade for as little as $15 per human being.
    "There he found several Dinka men hobbling, their Achilles tendons cut because they refused to become Muslims."
    Animist tribes in southern Sudan are frequently invaded by Arab militias from the North, who kill the men and enslave the women and children. The Arabs consider it a traditional right to enslave southerners, and to own chattel slaves (slaves owned as personal property).

    Frekin savages...

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