View Poll Results: Where there racists in 1776? (read post first)

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Thread: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

  1. #31
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm sure there are those who "hated" certain other races in 1776 but primarily they were not hated, just seen as property - like cattle or other tools and implements. Racism is a modern concept.
    I showed you the post of a scientist in the 18th century who literally said that the white race was superior to others and you clearly chose to ignore it. It's not a modern concept at all, even CC admitted that white superiority was the norm back them.

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm sure there are those who "hated" certain other races in 1776 but primarily they were not hated, just seen as property - like cattle or other tools and implements. .
    I agree with that.

    Racism is a modern concept
    The word racism itself is a modern concept. It still does not change the fact there were people who believed that some races were inferior and some were superior and that some people hate others because of the color of their skin and that there should be laws that foster these ideas.
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    100% agree with James. That doesn't happen often, I have to say.
    Me too, we rarely agree on anything, but this time 100%.

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    OK but did the master own the indenture servant's life or just his work?
    It was a contract.
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Maybe not, but it was definitely racist for other reasons.
    "the country' was not racist. Many hated the practice and spoke out against it. Many that followed the practice were simply following historical and cultural trends. The study of history requires only that we LEARN...understand. Attempting to judge history absed on modern understandings and the very lessons we learned FROM them is simply foolishness. SOME PEOPLE were then (and are today) 'racist.' The practice of slavery was not in and of itself racist.
    There are places in Africa today were people feel the right to enslave others because their cultural identity is inferior and its what they know. Are they 'racist' or have they simply not yet advanced as a people? Do they live their culture (wrong though it is)?

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I agree with that.



    The word racism itself is a modern concept. It still does not change the fact there were people who believed that some races were inferior and some were superior and that some people hate others because of the color of their skin and that there should be laws that foster these ideas.
    There were also people...scientists even that believed the world was flat. They didnt believe that because they were stupid, they believed it because they had no better frame of reference. When tomorrows scientists look back at our ideas today they will find many things that we were simply wrong about. It wont be because todays scientists are morons...it will be because todays scientists offered tomorrows scientists the gift of experience, theory, trial and error. Human beings are relatively intelligent. We 'learn'.

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    "the country' was not racist. Many hated the practice and spoke out against it. Many that followed the practice were simply following historical and cultural trends. The study of history requires only that we LEARN...understand. Attempting to judge history absed on modern understandings and the very lessons we learned FROM them is simply foolishness. SOME PEOPLE were then (and are today) 'racist.' The practice of slavery was not in and of itself racist.
    There are places in Africa today were people feel the right to enslave others because their cultural identity is inferior and its what they know. Are they 'racist' or have they simply not yet advanced as a people? Do they live their culture (wrong though it is)?
    That's not what I'm trying to argue. Slavery doesn't enter into my argument. I'm saying the country was racist because the vast majority of Americans held racist views (racist, meaning the belief that the races were FUNDAMENTALLY different and that whites were superior). These were views held by almost everyone at the time, regardless of whether or not they supported slavery. And that is what made the country racist.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    "the country' was not racist. Many hated the practice and spoke out against it. Many that followed the practice were simply following historical and cultural trends. The study of history requires only that we LEARN...understand. Attempting to judge history absed on modern understandings and the very lessons we learned FROM them is simply foolishness. SOME PEOPLE were then (and are today) 'racist.' The practice of slavery was not in and of itself racist.
    There are places in Africa today were people feel the right to enslave others because their cultural identity is inferior and its what they know. Are they 'racist' or have they simply not yet advanced as a people? Do they live their culture (wrong though it is)?
    The problem is that we're not talking about right vs. wrong. We're talking about racist vs. non-racist and racism has a very morality-neutral definition. You can be racist and not advanced, you can be racist and normal in your thought process. The scientific basis for racism and the morality of it are completely separate from whether or not racism exists.

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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    You keep making the same mistake. You are using a modern-day definition of racism, which of course, some of the founding fathers were. Then you assume that the modern definition is the only definition, which is plainly wrong. The people living in 1776 plainly wouldn't have considered themselves racist because what they believed was typical of their day. Trying to take modern-day sensibilities and imposing them on people of the past is a waste of time, just as it will be when people of the future look at how we conduct ourselves and declare us to be something-ist. What's the point?
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You keep making the same mistake. You are using a modern-day definition of racism, which of course, some of the founding fathers were. Then you assume that the modern definition is the only definition, which is plainly wrong. The people living in 1776 plainly wouldn't have considered themselves racist because what they believed was typical of their day. Trying to take modern-day sensibilities and imposing them on people of the past is a waste of time, just as it will be when people of the future look at how we conduct ourselves and declare us to be something-ist. What's the point?
    That is totally irrelevant.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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