View Poll Results: Where there racists in 1776? (read post first)

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Thread: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

  1. #21
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It's racism only in the modern interpretation. Travel back in time, there was no racism without the modern interpretation of it. Not sure why that concept is so difficult for you to grasp.
    I think we agreed to disagree on this, but I agree with TPD. While people back then didn't conceptualize race and racism in the same terms we do today, they still believed that there existed fundamental differences between the races, and usually these differences involved believing in the superiority of one's own race over another. THAT in and of itself is racism, no matter how you cut it. Historicism plays no part in the FACT that people back then held racist attitudes.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 07-06-11 at 12:14 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #22
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    OK but did the master own the indenture servant's life or just his work?
    He owned their life for a specific period of time. Usually that time frame was assessed at a # of years of productive work to pay off his debts. If that person did not fulfill the contract, left or tried to leave, the person would be physically (usually) punished - whipping and the like, just as a slave was and a penalty could be an addition of years (additive) to the existing contract. If a servent died in the employ of their master - the contract was null and void (obviously) but the owner had already shelled out the money - so any productivity loss would have to be made up some other way.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  3. #23
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It doesn't matter if the word existed back then. Racism is the belief that one's race is superior to other races and or racial hatred or the policy of government that fosters that doctrine. If you hate someone because of their race it doesn't matter if there is a word for it. If you think there are inferior and superior races then you are a racist and if you want a form of government that fosters such ideas then it is racism.There were people back then who thought their race was superior to other races and hated other races.
    100% agree with James. That doesn't happen often, I have to say.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  4. #24
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Racism - the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races

    Argument #1: Yes, there were racists in 1776 because there were people who believed that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

    Argument #2: No, there were not any racists in 1776 because white superiority was the the prevailing scientific theory at the time. Because scientists believed white superiority to be true, neither they nor anyone else was racist.
    yes, they were racist - they believed that others were inferior and treated them as such.

    And I would hardly call some of the first explorers who went looking for *gold* and precious gems in Africa to be scientists . . .rather - they were adventerers who didn't like the natives they found.
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    because white superiority was the the prevailing scientific theory at the time. Because scientists believed white superiority to be true, neither they nor anyone else was racist.
    You can hardly call this a scientific belief, even when it was current. Racialist theory has always been pseudoscience. Moreover, in 1776, science itself was closer to philosophy than what we think of today as science.

    Simply put, yes the founders were a bunch of slave-holding racists. Don't try to make excuses for them.

  6. #26
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It doesn't matter if the word existed back then. Racism is the belief that one's race is superior to other races and or racial hatred or the policy of government that fosters that doctrine. If you hate someone because of their race it doesn't matter if there is a word for it. If you think there are inferior and superior races then you are a racist and if you want a form of government that fosters such ideas then it is racism.There were people back then who thought their race was superior to other races and hated other races.
    I'm sure there are those who "hated" certain other races in 1776 but primarily they were not hated, just seen as property - like cattle or other tools and implements. Racism is a modern concept.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #27
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    OK but did the master own the indenture servant's life or just his work?
    We have discussed this in the past. Indentured servitude was the norm...right up until Anthony Johnson petitioned the commonwealth court for outright 'ownership' of another individual.

    'Slavery' was a practice engaged for centuries and by every society. Over time people became more and more enlightened to the human experience. In this country even before 1776 and the eventual formation of what became the United States, territories were banning the practice of slavery (Rhode Island, Pennsylvania for example). The US as a country was in a constant state of flux and growth. The US banned the importation of slaves and targeted the institution to end it it while the country was in its infancy. Where there 'racists' then? Sure...just as there are now and always WILL be. To say the country was racist because it allowed slavery is just simply wrong. Are 'Africans' today racist because they continue to allow the practice?
    Last edited by VanceMack; 07-06-11 at 12:18 PM.

  8. #28
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm sure there are those who "hated" certain other races in 1776 but primarily they were not hated, just seen as property - like cattle or other tools and implements. Racism is a modern concept.
    I don't think they were hated, but Europeans and Westerners during that period, and even extending back to perhaps the early renaissance, DID look down upon the other races (mainly black and yellow) as more savage and primitive, less civilized than themselves.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #29
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It doesn't matter if the word existed back then. Racism is the belief that one's race is superior to other races and or racial hatred or the policy of government that fosters that doctrine. If you hate someone because of their race it doesn't matter if there is a word for it. If you think there are inferior and superior races then you are a racist and if you want a form of government that fosters such ideas then it is racism.There were people back then who thought their race was superior to other races and hated other races.
    Exactly.

    X = belief in racial superiority

    If someone in 1776 says, "I believe in racial superiority", then they also say "X".

    X may be "racism", "purple", "kayak" or whatever word a society gives to that belief. The word is complete irrelevant to the presence of the belief.

  10. #30
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    Re: Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    We have discussed this in the past. Indentured servitude was the norm...right up until Thomas Johnson petitioned the commonwealth court for outright 'ownership' of another individual.

    'Slavery' was a practice engaged for centuries and by every society. Over time people became more and more enlightened to the human experience. In this country even before 1776 and the eventual formation of what became the United States, territories were banning the practice of slavery (Rhode Island, Pennsylvania for example). The US as a country was in a constant state of flux and growth. The US banned the importation of slaves and targeted the institution to end it it while the country was in its infancy. Where there 'racists' then? Sure...just as there are now and always WILL be. To say the country was racist because it allowed slavery is just simply wrong. Are 'Africans' today racist because they continue to allow the practice?
    Maybe not, but it was definitely racist for other reasons.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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