View Poll Results: I am between

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  • 10-19

    13 11.93%
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    40 36.70%
  • 30-39

    16 14.68%
  • 40-49

    20 18.35%
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    10 9.17%
  • 60-69

    7 6.42%
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    0 0%
  • 80-89

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    2 1.83%
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    1 0.92%
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Thread: My age is

  1. #101
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    But these are not liberal issues. Racial equality and woman's equality is just as important for conservatives. We just differ in the method to achieve the goal. I don't believe we can achieve equality be forcing companies to hire women and minorities. I believe we need to change our mindset or increase productivity of certain groups. Secondly, racial equality is backtracking in Europe.

    You are right about gay marriage. That's why I said partly. But gay marriage is not a big issue outside the US.
    I think that really depends on what time period we are referring to, and how one defines "socially conservative."

    Edit: I have an example. Have you heard of the so-called "Letter from the Eight White Clergymen" aka "A Call for Unity"?

    Some would classify the authors of that letter as conservatives, others as liberal reformists (as opposed to revolutionaries). But the ones who wanted to keep racial segregation and Jim Crow laws alive at the time, were, without a doubt, the social conservatives of their day.

    (sorry for using an American example, I hope you realize what I'm referring to).
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 07-06-11 at 01:42 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #102
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    • Most countries gave woman suffrage in 1910 - 1950
    • Slavery was abolised in most countries between 1800 - 1900, apartheid was abolished later but way before 1975 in any developed country.
    • Wife beating was illegal in most states by 1870.
    • Spanking children is legal in many countries, but is probably on the way out, and not a big thing for conservatives.
    • Poor people are getting less welfare now than before. It was much easier to get welfare back in the 80s in most countries
    • Most of the bans of capital punishment in developed countries happened in the 70s or before, many of the countries hadn't done capital punishment for a long time. US nearly banned capital punishment in the 70s.


    But fact is, since 1975 we have becoming much more economically conservative. If liberals are always right in the end, and conservatives are just there to pace liberals. Why have we been going the opposite way economically since 1975? Also, all of your examples happened before 1980 and very few people are against them.

    On the social side liberals are losing as well. Think about immigration, death penalty in the US, school system, police, etc. You think this is just a lag on the curve? A lag that lasts 30 years? Come on!
    Yes, and all those things are true thanks to what? Oh yes, social liberals. You buy it now, 50-200 years later. But the conservatives of the day fought it every step of the way.

    30 years is nothing. In the time scale of society, 30 years is just today's weather.

  3. #103
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Yes, and all those things are true thanks to what? Oh yes, social liberals. You buy it now, 50-200 years later. But the conservatives of the day fought it every step of the way.

    30 years is nothing. In the time scale of society, 30 years is just today's weather.
    I don't even think we can talk about conservatives with a larger time span than 100 years, because the conservatives back then were just rich white men who wanted to remain rich and to keep their power. Voting rights were restricted so that they had more power.

    Then you will realize that 30 years is quite a long time, and from what I see it's not going to get reversed for anytime soon. In fact, Europe is moving right. Especially towards immigration.

  4. #104
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    I'll be old enough to vote in one week.
    Now that is a surprise, from the maturity of many of your posts I'd have said much much older.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Yes, and all those things are true thanks to what? Oh yes, social liberals. You buy it now, 50-200 years later. But the conservatives of the day fought it every step of the way.

    30 years is nothing. In the time scale of society, 30 years is just today's weather.
    And here's another impressive young mind. Always enjoy your posts.

  5. #105
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I think that really depends on what time period we are referring to, and how one defines "socially conservative."

    Edit: I have an example. Have you heard of the so-called "Letter from the Eight White Clergymen" aka "A Call for Unity"?

    Some would classify the authors of that letter as conservatives, others as liberal reformists (as opposed to revolutionaries). But the ones who wanted to keep racial segregation and Jim Crow laws alive at the time, were, without a doubt, the social conservatives of their day.

    (sorry for using an American example, I hope you realize what I'm referring to).
    True, but we were talking about conservatives losing on social issues during the last 30 years. Most of the people who supported racial segregation are dead today. Outside the US, racial segregation was even more unpopular. Conservatives in 1980-2010 do not believe in racial segregation and they do support woman's equality. They just differ in the method to achieve the goals.

  6. #106
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    True, but we were talking about conservatives losing on social issues during the last 30 years. Most of the people who supported racial segregation are dead today. Outside the US, racial segregation was even more unpopular. Conservatives in 1980-2010 do not believe in racial segregation and they do support woman's equality. They just differ in the method to achieve the goals.
    In America, I'd say the biggest social issue right now is gay rights, everything else is on the back burner, including immigration and death penalty, etc (which aren't black and white liberal vs. conservative issues either). Conservatives really need to step up on that front. I know things are a little different in Europe, where perhaps the biggest social issue is immigration. Dunno about you Kiwis though
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 07-06-11 at 02:26 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  7. #107
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    In America, I'd say the biggest social issue right now is gay rights, everything else is on the back burner, including immigration and death penalty, etc (which aren't black and white liberal vs. conservative issues either). Conservatives really need to step up on that front.
    I think most people don't care whether or no gay people marry. As long as it doens't infringe on the religious establishment's right to say that it is against their beliefs for homosexuals to marry and they aren't going to do the ceremony.
    If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

  8. #108
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Yes, and all those things are true thanks to what? Oh yes, social liberals.
    How do you attribute those things to social liberals? And what was a social liberal in 1870?

    Quote Originally Posted by MisteressNomad
    But the conservatives of the day fought it every step of the way.
    You are incorrect here misteress... and I'll prove it.

    U.S., Womens Sufferage:
    Quote Originally Posted by NFRW
    The Republican Party pioneered the right of women to vote and was consistent in its support throughout the long campaign for acceptance. It was the first major party to advocate equal rights for women and the principle of equal pay for equal work.

    The Women’s Rights Convention held in Seneca Falls, N.Y., in 1848 marked the beginning of the women’s suffrage movement in the United States. Two years later there was a nationwide meeting in Worcester, Mass.

    By 1870, the Massachusetts Republican State Convention had already seated two suffragettes, Lucy Stone and Mary A. Livermore, as delegates. In addition, the National Republican Convention of 1872 approved a resolution favoring the admission of women to “wider fields of usefulness” and added that “the honest demand of this class of citizens for additional rights … should be treated with respectful consideration.”
    National Federation of Republican Women
    Slavery
    Quote Originally Posted by US History.org
    Ominous talk of pending civil war was rampant, and there was a real feeling of national crisis when Republicans gathered to choose their first presidential candidate at Philadelphia's Musical Fund Hall in mid June.

    Violent civil conflict in "bleeding Kansas" was polarizing the nation. In fact, it was the appeasement of slave interests through the Kansas-Nebraska and Fugitive Slave acts that gave birth to the party.

    The new Republican Party was born in 1854 at a meeting in Ripon, Wisconsin. Abolitionists and those opposed to extension of slavery gathered to protest the Kansas-Nebraska Act, which opened territory to slavery that had been forbidden by the old Missouri Compromise of 1820.

    The new party was an umbrella that took in members of the rapidly disintegrating Whig Party, abolitionists, Free-Soilers and anti-slavery Democrats.

    It was certainly a regional party — a party of the North and the West. The Evening Bulletin declared it was "somewhat astonished" by the appearance at the convention of delegates from Kentucky, Delaware, Virginia and North Carolina. "We had supposed in accordance with the popular impression that there would be no delegations from any southern or slave states."

    The three-day convention kicked off on June 17. The Bulletin noted: "Our town is again alive with the bustle and excitement of a grand convention. The hotels are crowded to the highest flight with politicians of many shades."

    The Democrats had met earlier in Cincinnati, and after 17 ballots selected Pennsylvanian James Buchanan as its standard-bearer. Buchanan, declared a Richmond, Va., newspaper, "had never uttered a word which could pain the most sensitive Southern heart." The party platform supported "popular sovereignty" for settling the question of slavery in new territories. And the party vowed to resist "in renewing in Congress or out of it, the agitation of the slavery question." GOP Convention of 1856 in Philadelphia
    Social liberals (not sure if Buchanan was actually a "social liberal" but whatever) did not want to address the question of slavery. A Democrat in the White House during the Civil War did not free the slaves either, as we know Lincoln was a Republican. There's also a long history of support for blacks in Congress and politics - not from the Democrats of the day, oh no no. They were Republicans as were the first black members of Congress but that's a different topic.

    Wife Beating / Child Spanking - I cannot find a federal view on this and it would take too long and exaughstive of a search to post state by state votes on laws, so I'll simply skip it.


    Welfare:
    - Certainly was and contiues to be a push by Social Liberals with some minor support by Conservatives as well as some resistance by Conservatives.

    Death Penalty / Capital Punishment: First, the U.S. did not "nearly ban" it in the 1970's. Second, it's support has been up and down over the years and is primarily a States issue. Wiki has a map:
    Fileeath penalty statutes in the United States-2011-10-03.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    To state that conservatives of the day fought it every step of the way is misleading and in some cases (Slavery, Sufferage) downright incorrect. I just want to set the record straight here and not let this bit of misinformation get glanced over and uncorrected.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  9. #109
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    How do you attribute those things to social liberals? And what was a social liberal in 1870?

    You are incorrect here misteress... and I'll prove it.

    U.S., Womens Sufferage:


    Slavery


    Social liberals (not sure if Buchanan was actually a "social liberal" but whatever) did not want to address the question of slavery. A Democrat in the White House during the Civil War did not free the slaves either, as we know Lincoln was a Republican. There's also a long history of support for blacks in Congress and politics - not from the Democrats of the day, oh no no. They were Republicans as were the first black members of Congress but that's a different topic.

    Wife Beating / Child Spanking - I cannot find a federal view on this and it would take too long and exaughstive of a search to post state by state votes on laws, so I'll simply skip it.


    Welfare:
    - Certainly was and contiues to be a push by Social Liberals with some minor support by Conservatives as well as some resistance by Conservatives.

    Death Penalty / Capital Punishment: First, the U.S. did not "nearly ban" it in the 1970's. Second, it's support has been up and down over the years and is primarily a States issue. Wiki has a map:
    Fileeath penalty statutes in the United States-2011-10-03.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    To state that conservatives of the day fought it every step of the way is misleading and in some cases (Slavery, Sufferage) downright incorrect. I just want to set the record straight here and not let this bit of misinformation get glanced over and uncorrected.
    ahh you beat me to it.
    If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

  10. #110
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    Re: My age is

    Quote Originally Posted by DashingAmerican View Post
    I think most people don't care whether or no gay people marry. As long as it doens't infringe on the religious establishment's right to say that it is against their beliefs for homosexuals to marry and they aren't going to do the ceremony.
    Agree for the most part. I just feel like the vast majority of conservatives, even if they are principally for the right of gays to marry, are rather passive when it comes to doing so. They might want equality, but they're not speaking out or really doing anything about it at this time. It really wasn't that long ago when DOMA was signed into law, and I don't see a rush of conservatives speaking out against its obvious unconstitutionality.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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