View Poll Results: Favorite/best form of government?

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  • Democracy/republic

    31 67.39%
  • Monarchy (constitutional/absolute)

    2 4.35%
  • Theocracy

    2 4.35%
  • Anarchy

    7 15.22%
  • Other (explain in post)

    4 8.70%
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Thread: Favorite/best form of government?

  1. #71
    User CarlF's Avatar
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Democracy/republic. The British monarchy system disgusts me a little. A state should have no business using tax money to prop up and give status to a small group of people just because they were born into a particular family. In an equal society there is no nobility, you should have to earn a status like that.

    And anarchy doesn't work either because it fails to get around the ultimate reality that force is sometimes necessary in society, and that's why government has to be there. But I'm opening a can of worms on that one..

  2. #72
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Fine, but the evidence is there for you to interpret.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    3 years, during a civil war,..

    Technically, yes, but these were stable communities. People worked, kids went to school, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    on the community level.

    Some of those communities were very large, urban areas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    My point stands; short term, backdrop of unrest, small scale.
    However, again, I think it's important to note that the Spanish Anarchist federation was, internally, quite stable. It collapsed, in a smaller part, to subversion from Communist groups allied with the Soviet Union, and, much more importantly, because it was invaded by an armed force, backed by, what was then, the most formidible, and technologically sophisticated army on Earth. It's not their fault for being bombed to **** by the Luftwaffe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Vietnam, Chile, and Nicaragua were not going to be Anarchist-Syndicalist states, so it doesn't really affect my point.

    They were alternative social and economic models.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    The systems at Nargen and Kronstadt were on a small scale and enforced by soldiers, which also falls under my original post. It's not really about beating down alternative government -- the US interventions are really more about callous realpolitik than anything else.

    Very little happens for just one reason, alone. One of the primary reasons, again, for crushing alternative models, especially in the case of South America, was to prevent what was called 'successful defiance.' It's the same reason why the auto companies recalled and destroyed all the electric cars they made once they got the legislation in California overturned. The idea is dangerous. If people see a better alternative, they'll start asking why they can't have it, as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    It's about anarcho-syndicalism being far too intangible to last. If you don't happen to think so that's certainly acceptable, but it's my opinion that the "lab results" will (and to some extent, already have) proven you wrong.

    That's a question of interpretation. Again, I just don't find the evidence to be definitive. In either case, again; this should not prevent us from dismantling the existing institutions of oppression, to create the most free, just, and equitable society that we can.
    Last edited by NGNM85; 07-06-11 at 03:33 AM.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
    And anarchy doesn't work either because it fails to get around the ultimate reality that force is sometimes necessary in society, and that's why government has to be there.
    What exactly do you feel you require a massive, monolithic institution to force you to do?

    Is it possible this could be achieved by other means?

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
    But I'm opening a can of worms on that one..
    That's a fair assessment.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  4. #74
    Distributist
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Technically, yes, but these were stable communities. People worked, kids went to school, etc.
    Their stability is debatable, particularly with the backdrop of war and Anarchist militias keeping the peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Some of those communities were very large, urban areas.
    Where, besides the Catalonia/Barcelona area, was anarcho-syndicalism specifically implemented during the Spanish civil war? Fraga, Alcorisa....it's all on the town level. They could not have possibly formed an anarcho-syndicalist state in the total absence of bureaucracy.

    You can say that outside forces played a role, but that structure would never have sustained itself. Yes, industrial production improved but that was mostly because an armed group of anarchists brought order to a previously revolting region, dominated by aloof aristocrats who literally didn't care at all. There's no evidence to suggest that Anarcho-Syndicalism could truly be implemented on a scale bigger than a town, sans bureaucracy, sans the trappings of a modern state...and common sense would lead us to believe that the evidence would rule against Anarcho-Syndicalism anyway. I reject the premise that the only, or even the main reason for Anarcho-Syndicalism's obscurity is that that superpowers are keeping it down. They certainly failed to do that with mainstream Communism and socialism. People look at this idea and say, "it's ridiculous." I can't blame them.
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  5. #75
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Bolshevism being a significant philosophical deviation from Libertarian Socialism; real Socialism.

    It wasn't that they weren't ready. We'll never know if they were ready or not, because Socialism was ground into the dust by the Bolsheviks.
    At the time of the Russian Revolution, Russia was not in any way industrialized. Despite its enormous flaws, the Bolsheviks rapidly industrialized the country. An anarchistic society wouldn't have been able to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    You say that as if you were stating the atomic weight of cobalt. I don't see any evidence that definitively proves this conclusion, not even close. In either case, it should not prevent us from identifying and dismantling existing institutions of oppression, to the extent we are able.
    On that we agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    No, that definition has only existed for almost fifty years, and is virtually exclusively confined to North America. I use the literal definition, which has existed for well over a century, and is still used, in it's original context, around the world. It's not my fault other people are deficient. I didn't make them deficient.
    Liberals were originally people who supported free market capitalism. Now liberal has become a left wing term, and libertarian has become right wing. Changing terms really aren't that big of a deal.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

  6. #76
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I think you're misunderstanding the context of the word 'property.' Anarchism makes a distinction between 'property' and 'posessions.' Your things; clothes, food, coffee-maker, remastered edition of the Star Wars trilogy, old issues of National Geographic, and your collection of Matryoshka dolls are all yours, and no-one has any right to them. However, you do not have the right to claim the means of production; a field, a factory, etc., and, by doing so, extort others for the proceeds of their labor. No-one has the 'right' to do that, any more than one has the 'right' to commit rape, or vandalism, etc. Also, under this school of Socialist thought, the capital is controlled not by a monolithic regime of bureaucrats, but, directly, by the laborers and the members of the community, themselves. This is the least authoritarian model of a society than one could envision.
    I understand you all too well. The means of production is a type of private property, period full stop. If you don't support ownership of means of production, then you don't support private property ownership in any meaningful way.

    And anyway, without coercion, how do you expect to get people who own means of production to give it up? By asking really nicely?

    Look, Remington Steele, just 'fess up to being an authoritarian already.

  7. #77
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I understand you all too well. The means of production is a type of private property, period full stop. If you don't support ownership of means of production, then you don't support private property ownership in any meaningful way.

    And anyway, without coercion, how do you expect to get people who own means of production to give it up? By asking really nicely?

    Look, Remington Steele, just 'fess up to being an authoritarian already.
    So who has the authority?
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

  8. #78
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    So who has the authority?
    Whoever is in charge of reappropriating the means of production. Essentially it's a race to see which morally bankrupt opportunist can be the first to seize control of the pillow-headed communitarians.

  9. #79
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    [...] it was invaded by an armed force, backed by, what was then, the most formidible, and technologically sophisticated army on Earth. It's not their fault for being bombed to **** by the Luftwaffe.
    Still, this highlights another major defect in such a system: it cannot defend itself from extant state-level powers with the means and the willingness to bomb them to ****.

    While I am certain that you and I would disagree on the proper role and form of government, you cannot deny that a "state-level" government is necessary to defend its citizens against the encroachment of other nations-- looking to your own example above.

    Even if such a system could maintain internal stability -- which I doubt -- it would be especially vulnerable to extermination by external threats... not a good model.
    Last edited by other; 07-06-11 at 10:25 PM.

  10. #80
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Whoever is in charge of reappropriating the means of production. Essentially it's a race to see which morally bankrupt opportunist can be the first to seize control of the pillow-headed communitarians.
    Well yeah, that's usually how it goes down in reality. Assuming it was working the way it was supposed to, though, the people would collectively own the means of production, so no one has authority. You can't have an authoritarian system with no authority, and you can't call someone an authoritarian when they're advocating such a system. Idealist, maybe, but not authoritarian.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

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