View Poll Results: Favorite/best form of government?

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  • Democracy/republic

    31 67.39%
  • Monarchy (constitutional/absolute)

    2 4.35%
  • Theocracy

    2 4.35%
  • Anarchy

    7 15.22%
  • Other (explain in post)

    4 8.70%
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Thread: Favorite/best form of government?

  1. #61
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    The evidence is in the Soviet Union and all the other places that tried and failed to institute pure Communism. It's just too unstable, and too vulnerable to someone seizing power.
    Negative. Bolshevism, and it's hard-line, authoritarian antecedents, were a significant philosophical departure from the dominent Socialist intellectual currents of the day. It was widely criticized, on these grounds, by many, if not most, of the leading Marxists of the day, including Anton Pannekoek, Karl Korsch, Rosa Luxemburg, etc., as well as the Anarchists; Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    Also, just wondering, how come you identify as a Libertarian if you favor anarcho-syndicalism? Libertarianism is on the opposite side of the economic spectrum.
    No, it isn't. Libertarian literally means a range of Socialist thought, real Socialism, including Anarchism, and some schools of Marxism.

    Libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  2. #62
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    No, it isn't. Libertarian literally means a range of Socialist thought, real Socialism, including Anarchism, and some schools of Marxism.
    You might have a historical claim to the name, but it definitely isn't apt to describe your beliefs. Libertarian-socialists can hardly be said to support liberty if you don't support the human right to the ownership of private property. You prefer authority to liberty, so it makes far more sense to call your school of thought "Authoritarian."

  3. #63
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You might have a historical claim to the name, but it definitely isn't apt to describe your beliefs. Libertarian-socialists can hardly be said to support liberty if you don't support the human right to the ownership of private property. You prefer authority to liberty, so it makes far more sense to call your school of thought "Authoritarian."
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

  4. #64
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Negative. Bolshevism, and it's hard-line, authoritarian antecedents, were a significant philosophical departure from the dominent Socialist intellectual currents of the day. It was widely criticized, on these grounds, by many, if not most, of the leading Marxists of the day, including Anton Pannekoek, Karl Korsch, Rosa Luxemburg, etc., as well as the Anarchists; Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, etc.
    That's what it became, but it started as a legitimate socialist revolution. It got hijacked by the Bolsheviks partway through, which in my view was inevitable given the technological level of the time period. They just weren't ready for pure communism, and we still aren't ready, imo. Hopefully someday we will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    No, it isn't. Libertarian literally means a range of Socialist thought, real Socialism, including Anarchism, and some schools of Marxism.

    Libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That's its original meaning, but today it's pretty much understood to mean socially liberal and economically conservative. Anarcho-syndicalism is both socially and economically liberal. If you insist on using the historical meaning of the word, you're going to confuse people.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

  5. #65
    global liberation

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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Libertarianism = some schools of Marxism and socialism...

    Is retarded.

  6. #66
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You might have a historical claim to the name, but it definitely isn't apt to describe your beliefs. Libertarian-socialists can hardly be said to support liberty if you don't support the human right to the ownership of private property. You prefer authority to liberty, so it makes far more sense to call your school of thought "Authoritarian."
    Nonsense.

    I think you're misunderstanding the context of the word 'property.' Anarchism makes a distinction between 'property' and 'posessions.' Your things; clothes, food, coffee-maker, remastered edition of the Star Wars trilogy, old issues of National Geographic, and your collection of Matryoshka dolls are all yours, and no-one has any right to them. However, you do not have the right to claim the means of production; a field, a factory, etc., and, by doing so, extort others for the proceeds of their labor. No-one has the 'right' to do that, any more than one has the 'right' to commit rape, or vandalism, etc. Also, under this school of Socialist thought, the capital is controlled not by a monolithic regime of bureaucrats, but, directly, by the laborers and the members of the community, themselves. This is the least authoritarian model of a society than one could envision.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  7. #67
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    That's what it became, but it started as a legitimate socialist revolution. It got hijacked by the Bolsheviks partway through, which in my view was inevitable given the technological level of the time period.
    Bolshevism being a significant philosophical deviation from Libertarian Socialism; real Socialism.


    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    They just weren't ready for pure communism, and we still aren't ready, imo. Hopefully someday we will be.
    It wasn't that they weren't ready. We'll never know if they were ready or not, because Socialism was ground into the dust by the Bolsheviks.

    You say that as if you were stating the atomic weight of cobalt. I don't see any evidence that definitively proves this conclusion, not even close. In either case, it should not prevent us from identifying and dismantling existing institutions of oppression, to the extent we are able.

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    That's its original meaning, but today it's pretty much understood to mean socially liberal and economically conservative. Anarcho-syndicalism is both socially and economically liberal. If you insist on using the historical meaning of the word, you're going to confuse people.
    No, that definition has only existed for almost fifty years, and is virtually exclusively confined to North America. I use the literal definition, which has existed for well over a century, and is still used, in it's original context, around the world. It's not my fault other people are deficient. I didn't make them deficient.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  8. #68
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Libertarianism = some schools of Marxism and socialism...

    Is retarded.
    It's a legitimate ideology and has been for over 150 years. Infact, the word was invented to describe French anarchists/communists in the 19th century and has been used in this way ever since. The Libertarian Party in the US has been around for about 40 years, and is what comes to mind when Americans hear the word "libertarian" these days.

    I'm a libertarian socialist so I chose "anarchy" from the poll. It doesn't make sense to exclude "democracy", I would have chosen both.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  9. #69
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Libertarianism = some schools of Marxism and socialism...

    Is retarded.
    If, by 'retarded', you mean; 'literally true', and; 'accurate.'
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  10. #70
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    Re: Favorite/best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Like I said, I just really don't find this very pursuasive.
    Fine, but the evidence is there for you to interpret.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    The Anarchist federation in revolutionary Spain encompassed hundreds of thousands of individuals, over a period of years, in a fairly modern, sophisticated society.
    3 years, during a civil war, on the community level.

    My point stands; short term, backdrop of unrest, small scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    It ultimately collapsed, however, I don't see that this can rightfully described as a failure, as it occurred not because of some lack of planning or organization, but, rather, internal strife on the part of Communist groups in thrall to Moscow, and, more importantly, a takeover by Franco's fascists, backed by Hitler's Wehrmacht. Also, when criticisizing the lack of alternative models, or stable alternative models, one must acknowledge that both of the superpowers spent about half a century, and considerable resources, to destroy alternative models, by any means necessary. On the Soviet side, this included brutal internal repression, the dismantling of the Soviets, Krondstadt, etc. In the case of the United States; Vietnam, Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala, etc. This continues today, with regards to Cuba, or Venezuela, for example. 'Successful defiance' must be undermined at all costs.
    Vietnam, Chile, and Nicaragua were not going to be Anarchist-Syndicalist states, so it doesn't really affect my point. The systems at Nargen and Kronstadt were on a small scale and enforced by soldiers, which also falls under my original post. It's not really about beating down alternative government -- the US interventions are really more about callous realpolitik than anything else. It's about anarcho-syndicalism being far too intangible to last. If you don't happen to think so that's certainly acceptable, but it's my opinion that the "lab results" will (and to some extent, already have) proven you wrong.
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