View Poll Results: Where do you land?

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  • I am wealthy, and favor tax hikes for the wealthy

    9 10.34%
  • I am not wealthy, and favor tax hikes for the wealthy

    32 36.78%
  • I am wealthy, and against tax hikes for the wealthy

    0 0%
  • I am not wealthy, and against tax hikes for the wealthy

    34 39.08%
  • Other

    12 13.79%
  • Unsure

    0 0%
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Thread: Where do you land

  1. #151
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    *sigh* you have no idea what you're talking about. theories of race and racial superiority existed in the 18th century. again, that they didn't name such theories "racism" does not negate the fact that they existed.

    In THEIR own words:


    Georges Cuvier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Funny...thats pretty much what Darwin said. And why? Could it be that what mankind knew of them was that they were barbaric, undeveloped, unadvanced?

  2. #152
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Dave? Bob? Mark?

    What do you call Africans in 1776 that held slaves? Or Spaniards? or Koreans?
    Irrelevant to the discussion.

  3. #153
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    So much talk about how the wealthy deserve this, and the rich need that. Where do you fall in all this?
    Well, guess what....

    Do you know what happens when you "tax the wealthy?"

    The so-called "wealthy" are the people who run small businesses. They are the people who create jobs and hire people.

    So.... Do you want to make unemployment go up even higher?

    Are you aware that we are far down on the back side of the Laffer Curve. Do you know what happens when you raise taxes there?

    And... are you really ready to see Atlas shrug?

    So... Go ahead.... Tax the "wealthy."

  4. #154
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, I'm not saying that. But I am saying that, in 1776 terms, that was not racism. It was more like ignorance. Consider this. In 1000 B.C. it would not have been stupid to think the earth was flat, it would have been ignorant. Today, it would have been stupid. We can't judge those people on current knowledge, nor can we judge those in 1776 on current knowledge. They didn't know.
    Racism is "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." This definition says nothing about "stupid" vs. "ignorance". In fact, many racists now are just ignorant, not stupid, but that's beside the point.

    If you agree that there were whites who thought of their race as superior to blacks, then you believe racism existed in 1776. The word "racism" did not exist. However, theories of race that posited the superiority of the white race existed and that is racism, regardless of ignorance or stupidity or whatever. "Racism" is just a label to describe a reality.

    Yes, I am using a modern word that did not exist in 1776, but the same belief that that word describes existed then as it does today regardless of what caused it or how normal it was. Moreover, the idea that they just "didn't know" isn't entirely accurate considering that other scientists recognized that races were equal in ability and many abolitionists recognized the same thing.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 07-05-11 at 07:03 PM.

  5. #155
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Racism is "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." This definition says nothing about "stupid" vs. "ignorance". In fact, many racists now are just ignorant, not stupid, but that's beside the point.

    If you agree that there were whites who thought of their race as superior to blacks, then you believe racism existed in 1776. The word "racism" did not exist. However, theories of race that posited the superiority of the white race existed and that is racism, regardless of ignorance or stupidity or whatever. "Racism" is just a label to describe a reality.

    Yes, I am using a modern word that did not exist in 1776, but the same belief that that word describes existed then as it does today regardless of what caused it or how normal it was. Moreover, the idea that they just "didn't know" isn't entirely accurate considering that other scientists recognized that races were equal in ability and many abolitionists recognized the same thing.
    You are not listening. From where I sit, I believe that racism existed in 1776. Sitting in 1776, with 1776 values and knowledge, I do not believe that racism existed, I believe it was ignorance. In 1776, people did not have the science or understanding that blacks were equal to whites. Fact is, racism cannot exist unless one believes that there are differences and people should be treated differently because of these differences, if the prevailing information at the time is that these differences actually exist.
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  6. #156
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You are not listening. From where I sit, I believe that racism existed in 1776. Sitting in 1776, with 1776 values and knowledge, I do not believe that racism existed, I believe it was ignorance. In 1776, people did not have the science or understanding that blacks were equal to whites. Fact is, racism cannot exist unless one believes that there are differences and people should be treated differently because of these differences, if the prevailing information at the time is that these differences actually exist.
    After this one, I give up trying to explain it again CC. Sometimes it's just not worth it.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #157
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You are not listening. From where I sit, I believe that racism existed in 1776. Sitting in 1776, with 1776 values and knowledge, I do not believe that racism existed, I believe it was ignorance. In 1776, people did not have the science or understanding that blacks were equal to whites. Fact is, racism cannot exist unless one believes that there are differences and people should be treated differently because of these differences, if the prevailing information at the time is that these differences actually exist .
    I'm reading exactly what you say and I've clarified why I think it's complete BS and I'll repeat myself again.

    Fact is, the bold part of your comment is NOT in the definition of racism. I have provided the definition of racism and it's only definition is "belief that there are differences in races and that certain races are superior to others." All the little conditions that you have added to the definition are your own - they are not in the definition of racism. Unless you can find an accepted definition of racism that says "racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over others...when available information says the opposite" then you're making **** up and trying to convince other people to accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    After this one, I give up trying to explain it again CC. Sometimes it's just not worth it.
    Get over yourself. Aren't you the guy who said theories of racial superiority only exist in "modern interpretation" (and CC liked your post)? Unfortunately, I posted the words of scientist in the 18th/early 19th centuries and he explicitly provided a theory of racial superiority. If you're both going to ignore his words and pretend that he didn't say whites were superior to the black "barbarians", then neither one of you is interested in the truth.

  8. #158
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    So what do you call a white man in 1776 who thought whites were superior to blacks?
    By today's standards, racist. By the standards of the day, pretty typical. Where you're having a problem is thinking that the standards of today are the only standards there have ever been. They're not.
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  9. #159
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I wasn't talking about definitions in general. I was talking about racism in particular. Racism, while the word itself and how we think about racism today are fairly modern, doesn't take away from the fact that people 200 years held racist attitudes, and were therefore racists. Yes, the reality is that almost everyone back in the day held racist attitudes. It's also reality that just because they were in the majority doesn't make them not racists.
    By today's standards, sure. If you asked people back then if they thought they were racist, they'd tell you now. Stop pretending like the standards of today are the end-all-be-all of everything. They're not.
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  10. #160
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    By today's standards, racist. By the standards of the day, pretty typical. Where you're having a problem is thinking that the standards of today are the only standards there have ever been. They're not.
    How are racist and typical opposites? This is the main problem with the argument - that the normality of racism means that racism didn't exist.

    If I asked an average white slave owner, "Are you a racist?", he would respond, "What's that?" since the word didn't exist. If I asked him if he thought that the white race was superior to the black race, he would likely say, "yes". That's all I need to know to recognize him as a racist. You and others are hung up on the word "racist" and that word is completely irrelevant to argument I'm making. You could call the same reality I'm pointing to "purple" instead of "racism" and it would still exist in 1776.

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