View Poll Results: Where do you land?

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  • I am wealthy, and favor tax hikes for the wealthy

    9 10.34%
  • I am not wealthy, and favor tax hikes for the wealthy

    32 36.78%
  • I am wealthy, and against tax hikes for the wealthy

    0 0%
  • I am not wealthy, and against tax hikes for the wealthy

    34 39.08%
  • Other

    12 13.79%
  • Unsure

    0 0%
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Thread: Where do you land

  1. #141
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It was already answered - twice I believe.

    Back then you'd call them have nots... they were considered inferior, so they were less than a have not. However, there was no such term as "racist". They were "stinking indians" or "yellow man" or "nigger" in the verbiage of the time. That was a widely held belief at the time and not just in the United States.

    I just provided this. There is no term of racist ... there was nothing at the time that could be called "racism" other than a modern concept of the term.

    If viewed from the present. If viewed from the past, it was not a capitalist society.

    Continuing to say the same thing over and over is not going to make it true. It's a matter of perspective. If viewing the past from the present you are correct, if viewing the past from the pasts perspective, you're wrong.
    Right, but it doesn't matter if they thought of themselves as racists. The idea of "race" existed and the idea that certain races were superior to other races existed (it wasn't just haves vs. have nots - there were theories of race that held blacks were inferior to whites). That they didn't have a name for the latter idea does not mean that the idea didn't exist. The absence of a name does not imply the absence of an idea.

    If I look at 1776 from 1776's perspective, then many white people believed that their race was superior to blacks - that's just a fact. The word you use to describe that belief is completely irrelevant. You can call it "purple" for all I care, but "purple" (meaning the belief that one race is superior to others) existed in 1776 just as it exists now.

  2. #142
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Right, but it doesn't matter if they thought of themselves as racists. The idea of "race" existed and the idea that certain races were superior to other races existed (it wasn't just haves vs. have nots - there were theories of race that held blacks were inferior to whites). That they didn't have a name for the latter idea does not mean that the idea didn't exist. The absence of a name does not imply the absence of an idea.

    If I look at 1776 from 1776's perspective, then many white people believed that their race was superior to blacks - that's just a fact. The word you use to describe that belief is completely irrelevant. You can call it "purple" for all I care, but "purple" (meaning the belief that one race is superior to others) existed in 1776 just as it exists now.
    I agree because you force your view through a filter called "the present". The present filter cannot be applied if one goes back in time... you must use the "present" filter of 1776 which doesn't redefine racism, since it didn't exist - it's irrelevant in 1776.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  3. #143
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I agree because you force your view through a filter called "the present". The present filter cannot be applied if one goes back in time... you must use the "present" filter of 1776 which doesn't redefine racism, since it didn't exist - it's irrelevant in 1776.
    It was not irrelevant - the inequality of races was a concept that was discussed, written about and believed by many in that time period. That they didn't name such theories of race does not negate the fact that they existed.

    The only thing I'm bringing from the present is the word, the collection of sounds, the written symbols - "racism", but the content, the theory/belief of racial inequality existed in 1776 just as it does now.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 07-05-11 at 03:08 PM.

  4. #144
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    It was not irrelevant - the inequality of races was a concept that was discussed, written about and believed by many in that time period. That they didn't name such theories of race does not negate the fact that they existed.
    *sigh* They only exist in the modern interpretation.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  5. #145
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    What happens to the wealthy tax base when states implement a massive tax hike on the wealthy? It disappears. They move.
    I haven't seen massive proposed, so what is defined as massive?

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  6. #146
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    These people are including the employer contributions to the FICA tax on the employee side. In other words, they are doubling the effect of the (admittedly regressive) FICA tax on those making less than the cap, and subtracting that tax paid by the employer!
    Wait...are you suggesting that the FICA employer contribution isn't a tax on the employee? It's a part of the overall compensation that a business must pay for employing someone, it's money that doesn't go to the employee, and it's money that goes to the government instead. How exactly is that not a tax on the employee? It has exactly the same effect as just making the employee pay the tax would. Just because the employer pretends to pay half the FICA tax (and docks your salary accordingly), doesn't mean your after-tax income is any higher. It's just a question of process...does the employer withhold the tax before the money makes it to your pay stub, or after?

    Then they don't count taxes on corporate profits, but on net after tax.
    Most corporate taxes are regressive, because they tend to be paid by the consumers and workers moreso than the shareholders.

    well yeah man, I mean, I could show you how the poor were actually taxed at 175% of their share of the national income if I were just allowed to count taxes paid by one group of people as paid by another; and apply Canadian tax-accounting methods to American Corporate Profits.
    The statistics they collected measured how taxes affected people in various income brackets. For taxes paid by non-people, it makes more sense to estimate which people are ACTUALLY paying them and to what extent.

    You can't mask who pays for something just by having someone else "technically" pay for it. For example, if businesses started telling their consumers that they would pay the sales tax themselves instead of making the consumers pay it, don't be fooled; they'd just raise their prices accordingly and the net effect would be exactly the same. That's more or less what currently happens with corporate taxation, and it's more or less what happens with the employer's share of FICA taxes.

    anywho, as per OP, I think both of us would take revenue-neutral tax code simplification before we wanted our current system just with hiked nominal rates.
    Yes, I would support some version of the Wyden-Gregg tax reform proposal. I think there should be very few deductions or credits...ideally the only ones I'd allow would be for charitable deductions and the Earned Income Tax Credit, although I recognize that we'd also need to phase a few others out slowly (e.g. mortgage interest) instead of suddenly eliminating them.

    as well it should be. the money you are investing was already taxed when you earned it, and whatever productive use you put it to was already taxed when the business you invested in reported profits. If we could just get over ourselves enough to further lower or (preferably) eliminate this tax, we would become the worlds' investment/tax haven overnight.
    A better solution would be to reduce the CORPORATE tax rate, and tax capital gains at the normal income bracket rate. This would eliminate the double taxation problem, make the tax code simpler and more progressive, and increase compliance. It would also do more to make us the "world's investment/tax haven overnight" than eliminating the capital gains tax would...because most foreign investors don't pay US capital gains taxes anyway unless they work here.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-05-11 at 04:13 PM.
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  7. #147
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    my uncle is a small business owner - one of the 'rich'. but his business is operating on the edge in the recession. you raise his taxes, the next day he has to fire employees to keep it in the black. generally, yeah, he will continue to do alright -he may have to sell his house and just eat the depreciation. it's his (former) blue-collar non-college-educated employees who will really suffer.
    But as I understand it, that's progress. Stuff happens. Not everybody gets to keep their job or their business. Correct?

  8. #148
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    *sigh* They only exist in the modern interpretation.
    *sigh* you have no idea what you're talking about. theories of race and racial superiority existed in the 18th century. again, that they didn't name such theories "racism" does not negate the fact that they existed.

    In THEIR own words:
    Georges Cuvier (17691832)
    The white race, with oval face, straight hair and nose, to which the civilised people of Europe belong and which appear to us the most beautiful of all, is also superior to others by its genius, courage and activity.

    Regarding Negros, Cuvier wrote:
    The Negro race... is marked by black complexion, crisped of woolly hair, compressed cranium and a flat nose, The projection of the lower parts of the face, and the thick lips, evidently approximate it to the monkey tribe: the hordes of which it consists have always remained in the most complete state of barbarism."
    Georges Cuvier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  9. #149
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I'm not buying it, at all. Are you saying that no white person in 1776 thought white people were superior to black people?
    No, I'm not saying that. But I am saying that, in 1776 terms, that was not racism. It was more like ignorance. Consider this. In 1000 B.C. it would not have been stupid to think the earth was flat, it would have been ignorant. Today, it would have been stupid. We can't judge those people on current knowledge, nor can we judge those in 1776 on current knowledge. They didn't know.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 07-05-11 at 05:50 PM.
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  10. #150
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    So what do you call a white man in 1776 who thought whites were superior to blacks?
    Dave? Bob? Mark?

    What do you call Africans in 1776 that held slaves? Or Spaniards? or Koreans?

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