View Poll Results: Where do you land?

Voters
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  • I am wealthy, and favor tax hikes for the wealthy

    9 10.34%
  • I am not wealthy, and favor tax hikes for the wealthy

    32 36.78%
  • I am wealthy, and against tax hikes for the wealthy

    0 0%
  • I am not wealthy, and against tax hikes for the wealthy

    34 39.08%
  • Other

    12 13.79%
  • Unsure

    0 0%
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Thread: Where do you land

  1. #101
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Tell me who you are referring to when you are discussing "early" progressives.
    Wilson, some of the none politician Social Darwinist who influenced political society.
    Can't remember all their names off the top of my head.
    During the Gilded Era and somewhat afterwards a lot of self described progressives were borderline fascists.

    Even ole Teddy believed in some of morally offensive stuff, like eugenics iirc.

    Edit:
    Note I do not believe that even a simple majority of modern progressives hold any of these things, she asked when it was started.
    I offered my answer from the early time in America, when it began, in my opinion of course.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 07-04-11 at 01:29 AM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Where do you land

    I voted other. "Wealthy" is a very nebulous term. Wealthy in relation to what? I fall into the top 4% of wage earners in the U.S., from what I've been told, does that make me wealthy? In the area in which I live, I'm pretty average. I most certainly do not want the wealthy to get screwed, by and large they've worked and earned what they make, they deserve to bring that money home just like anyone else does. You cannot punish success, just because it doesn't affect you.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #103
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Wilson, some of the none politician Social Darwinist who influenced political society.
    Can't remember all their names off the top of my head.
    During the Gilded Era and somewhat afterwards a lot of self described progressives were borderline fascists.

    Even ole Teddy believed in some of morally offensive stuff, like eugenics iirc.

    Edit:
    Note I do not believe that even a simple majority of modern progressives hold any of these things, she asked when it was started.
    I offered my answer from the early time in America, when it began, in my opinion of course.
    You're talking about a very different era when belief systems were different. For example, 200+ years ago, many of our most brilliant thinkers felt that blacks were an inferior race. When one takes out some of these beliefs that were based on the social mores of the day, or the understanding of science of the day, most of the beliefs weren't all that different from what progressives believe, nowadays. Efficiency, attacks on corruption, reform, federal strength over state's strength, decisions based on science, and modernization. I disagree with the thought that progressivism aimed towards fascism. Most progressives wanted a more direct democracy. The disagreement is that progressives believe in legal positivism and that making laws and decisions for society should be based on rationalism.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #104
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You're talking about a very different era when belief systems were different. For example, 200+ years ago, many of our most brilliant thinkers felt that blacks were an inferior race. When one takes out some of these beliefs that were based on the social mores of the day, or the understanding of science of the day, most of the beliefs weren't all that different from what progressives believe, nowadays. Efficiency, attacks on corruption, reform, federal strength over state's strength, decisions based on science, and modernization. I disagree with the thought that progressivism aimed towards fascism. Most progressives wanted a more direct democracy. The disagreement is that progressives believe in legal positivism and that making laws and decisions for society should be based on rationalism.
    Let me just take a stab at the zealous federalism point for a second. Regardless of what we believe in personally, shouldn't states be more diverse in everything from their political and judicial structures all the way to their social culture? Please don't distort this statement by stretching it and claiming I support anarchy and a weak unity of states. Instead, when balancing the needs for state freedom and the need for national unity, I still weigh more body weight towards the state's rights (as does the constitution) because the opposite would be a prosaic and repetitive society based on strict, draconian laws that supersede the free rights of individuals. But I suppose individual freedom might be a little farther down on your list.

  5. #105
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Let me just take a stab at the zealous federalism point for a second. Regardless of what we believe in personally, shouldn't states be more diverse in everything from their political and judicial structures all the way to their social culture? Please don't distort this statement by stretching it and claiming I support anarchy and a weak unity of states. Instead, when balancing the needs for state freedom and the need for national unity, I still weigh more body weight towards the state's rights (as does the constitution) because the opposite would be a prosaic and repetitive society based on strict, draconian laws that supersede the free rights of individuals. But I suppose individual freedom might be a little farther down on your list.
    National unity wins out over states rights. Ultimately, we are not at nation of little fiefdoms. We are a unified nation who's dealings with the rest of the world occurs together. Your opinion that this creates strict, draconian laws is ridiculous. The laws would be unified, but beyond that, they would be what they would be.

    As far as individual rights go, they are certainly high on the list. But I imagine that we think of rights in very different ways.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #106
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I voted other.

    I'm not in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy, I'm in favor of completely restructuring our tax system. I think a progressive income tax is necessary, but I don't like the way we currently do it. If things were changed the way I want them to be, and the end result was that the rich ended up paying more than they do now, I'm okay with it, as long as it isn't a ridiculous amount more.

    As far as my personal situation goes, I am definitely not rich, but my wife and I are both engineers, so we're comfortable.
    my uncle is a small business owner - one of the 'rich'. but his business is operating on the edge in the recession. you raise his taxes, the next day he has to fire employees to keep it in the black. generally, yeah, he will continue to do alright -he may have to sell his house and just eat the depreciation. it's his (former) blue-collar non-college-educated employees who will really suffer.

  7. #107
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You're talking about a very different era when belief systems were different. For example, 200+ years ago, many of our most brilliant thinkers felt that blacks were an inferior race
    this is not really accurate. the notion that blacks could be considered a scientifically inferior race was developed later, in the 19th Century. some of the Founders owned slaves, but they weren't racist in the sense of American Racism that we remember from history.

    When one takes out some of these beliefs that were based on the social mores of the day, or the understanding of science of the day, most of the beliefs weren't all that different from what progressives believe, nowadays. Efficiency, attacks on corruption, reform, federal strength over state's strength, decisions based on science, and modernization.
    those are not Progressive Ideology; they merely formed the claims for Progressive ideology. the Founders had a much more confined picture of federal strength (the powers were 'few and defined': progressives wanted a state that was all-powerful)

    I disagree with the thought that progressivism aimed towards fascism. Most progressives wanted a more direct democracy. The disagreement is that progressives believe in legal positivism and that making laws and decisions for society should be based on rationalism.
    that is precisely what the Fascists pushed as well. a Third Way based on pragmatism and so forth.

  8. #108
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    Interesting. 17/17 tie, with 8 'other'.
    BDBoop, the data from your poll is interesting.
    National statistics indicate that approx. 5% of the US are millionaires, i.e. based on net worth. The poll indicated that 9/52s, 17% of ‘us’ in the poll are wealthy. My standard for wealthy is $1,000,000 or more net worth for a family, I’d consider 750,000 for a single person to meet the standard.
    100% of the wealthy were not against raising their taxes. The sample of this position was 9, but 100% is significant in a small sample of 9. However, there were many arguing that we are all exceptions.
    The participants that do not consider themselves wealthy split 22 to 21 on raising the taxes on the wealthy. All I can say to the ones that say don’t tax the wealthy more is: Thanks for looking out for the stupid wealthy.

  9. #109
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    BDBoop, the data from your poll is interesting.
    National statistics indicate that approx. 5% of the US are millionaires, i.e. based on net worth. The poll indicated that 9/52s, 17% of ‘us’ in the poll are wealthy. My standard for wealthy is $1,000,000 or more net worth for a family, I’d consider 750,000 for a single person to meet the standard.
    100% of the wealthy were not against raising their taxes. The sample of this position was 9, but 100% is significant in a small sample of 9. However, there were many arguing that we are all exceptions.
    The participants that do not consider themselves wealthy split 22 to 21 on raising the taxes on the wealthy. All I can say to the ones that say don’t tax the wealthy more is: Thanks for looking out for the stupid wealthy.
    Thank you for pointing out exactly what I and my housemate were wondering. What's the mindset here? "Someday I'll be wealthy, and therefore?"

  10. #110
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    Re: Where do you land

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    Thank you for pointing out exactly what I and my housemate were wondering. What's the mindset here? "Someday I'll be wealthy, and therefore?"
    And your data indicate that by the time someone makes it to wealthy they'll change there position.

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