View Poll Results: Is Citizen's United et al ruling compatible with democracy?

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Thread: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    The cool thing is that the above opinions never gain any sort of traction.
    I can cite several historical examples. Are the majority of Americans (real) Libertarians? No, most Americans don't approach these issues in such a systemic way; they aren't reading Chomsky, or Kropotkin, or whatever. However, the basic principles are widely held. There are ample statistics revealing substantial antipathy towards corporations among the American people, and justifiably so. Most Americans don't read Marx, either, however, most of them regard his famous quote; 'From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.' to be be such an obvious truism, as to be taken for granted.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  2. #12
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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    That's what they pay the propagandists for. PR is a ten billion dollar Industry, and that doesn't count the professionals in the direct employ of corporations, politicians, and PACs.

    They're obviously getting their moneys worth.
    The Western countries, especially the United States, have, by far, the most sophisticated propaganda systems.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  3. #13
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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I can cite several historical examples. Are the majority of Americans (real) Libertarians? No, most Americans don't approach these issues in such a systemic way; they aren't reading Chomsky, or Kropotkin, or whatever. However, the basic principles are widely held. There are ample statistics revealing substantial antipathy towards corporations among the American people, and justifiably so. Most Americans don't read Marx, either, however, most of them regard his famous quote; 'From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.' to be be such an obvious truism, as to be taken for granted.
    Of course you can find examples of antipathy and even outright hate of a corporation. That is really irrelevant to anything.

  4. #14
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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Completely compatible.
    A corporation is merely a collective of people lobbying government.

    Democracy tends to end itself because it is the belief that all people have valid opinions in the operation of government.
    Basically, an appeal to the majority.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    The Western countries, especially the United States, have, by far, the most sophisticated propaganda systems.
    Trying to get people to think about that fact, in light of Citizens United specifically is why I joined this board.

    I personally believe that modern persuasion science, coupled with CU, is one of the greatest threats facing the working class in this country.

    Both sides in this country point to people on the other side who believe ridiculous things.

    If anyone would like to know HOW they were led to believe these things, I invite you to explore the site in my sig. There is much there to see, linked to the original, peer reviewed research. All in an entertaining format. And virtually devoid of partisanship. (The author is a research psychology grad student from the UK)

    Once exposed to HOW bs can be installed in your head it becomes much more difficult to do so. Further, you tend to SEE it more when its in play.

    I'm betting that if enough people realize the extent to which they are being slipped the equivalent of mental "rufees" they won't take too kindly to it.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  6. #16
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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    You forgot the poll!

    No, it is not compatible.

    Unlimited anonymous money will be the end of our democracy.

    If you're going to shout over everybody by means of your wealth, then I want to know who you are so that I can vote against you with my dollars if necessary. Deny you my business if I disagree with your donation, give you my business if I support it.

    Money is not speech. The ability to anonymously buy EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of available airtime was certainly not what the Founders had in mind.

    If it is not speech then why did you compare it to shouting over others?

    Corporations are not people. They can be neither imprisoned nor executed. They never sleep. They share no DNA with homo sapiens.

    The upcoming election will certainly be akin to a trip through the Looking Glass.
    Yeah, corporations are not people... great. Why should groups of people be prohibited from joining together in a common cause?

  7. #17
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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Completely compatible.
    A corporation is merely a collective of people lobbying government.

    Democracy tends to end itself because it is the belief that all people have valid opinions in the operation of government.
    Basically, an appeal to the majority.
    Its the anonymity that is the issue. If a corporation wants to produce and air ads to convince people of their point of view, fine. Just say "Paid for by "x" Corp".

    What we're going to see is a tidal wave of deceptive crap being passed off as "grassroots" and "people just like you" that absolutely is NOT.

    Don't be surprised when you see the first "fake" Republican or Democrat ad. And no one will be able to prove its fake because its all anonymous.

    Its going to be a mess. Mark my words.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  8. #18
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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Its the anonymity that is the issue. If a corporation wants to produce and air ads to convince people of their point of view, fine. Just say "Paid for by "x" Corp".

    What we're going to see is a tidal wave of deceptive crap being passed off as "grassroots" and "people just like you" that absolutely is NOT.

    Don't be surprised when you see the first "fake" Republican or Democrat ad. And no one will be able to prove its fake because its all anonymous.

    Its going to be a mess. Mark my words.
    I don't think full disclosure will change much to tell ya the truth.
    Mostly because few people look up who actually donates to which cause.

    Only politic junkies, like us, care.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #19
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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    If it is not speech then why did you compare it to shouting over others?



    Yeah, corporations are not people... great. Why should groups of people be prohibited from joining together in a common cause?
    Ok.

    Shouting is not speaking. Different words.

    I didn't say anything about people not being able to join together in common cause. What I did say is that said group should not be considered an actual person itself.

    And they should be able to advocate their causes. As long as they do so OPENLY. Would you want a Chinese competitor secretly supporting a candidate that would put you out of business? Or any competitor for that matter? Pretending to be "Grandmothers in support of keeping kids safe" or whatever?
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  10. #20
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    Re: Is Citizen's United et al (new rulings) compatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't think full disclosure will change much to tell ya the truth.
    Mostly because few people look up who actually donates to which cause.

    Only politic junkies, like us, care.
    Considerable amounts of money and effort have been invested in eliminating disclosure and removing limits on contributions, so considerable value must be placed on those conditions being in place.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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