View Poll Results: Is North Korea communistic?

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Thread: Is North Korea a communistic State?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Depends how you define Communist.

    Marx explicitly wrote that a Communist country would be ruled by the worker. And since the only people left after a Communist revolution would be workers, it would be direct democracy (scary **** eh?). Due to there only be workers, there would be a classless society. North Korea fails those two criteria right off the bat.

    Moreso, Marx wrote that a Communist nation does not trade with the West. North Korea at least matches this partially, but not by choice. For the same reason China and the Former USSR fail this test (and the earlier two, gang of 6 anyone, worker rule my ***?). And more importantly, Marx wrote against Capitalism and property rights. China and Russia have brought those back with some caveats, and North Korea has property rights for its elite class.

    If we stick with the actual definition of Communism, North Korea fails pretty hard in almost all categories. The problem with defining Communism based on the actions of those in the past 50 years is that it renders Communism to mean whatever self proclaimed Communists have done. Which include strong property rights, a ruling elite with little to no voice by the people, export oriented economies focusing on the West and frameworks to encourage capitalism. The idiotic idea of defining Communism not by what Marx wrote but by what "communists" have done is that it renders most countries in the world at some point in their history Communist. Is that intelligent? No. Does that produce any thing of value? No. So why do some people use it? Probably because they first don't know what Communism actually is and don't realize they just classified Switzerland as Communist.
    That was a thoughtful and well-written post. Though I dislike the theory of communism for its principles and aftermaths, I understand your points and I respect you for them.
    Last edited by Wake; 06-29-11 at 11:19 PM.

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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Take a look at the definition of socialism.
    Ok yes, lets take a look at socialism.
    Here is what socialism is in the most basic nutshell (i find myself posting this ever other ****ing post...)
    Socialism is a theory or policy of social organization which aims at or advocates the ownership and control of the means of production, capital, land, property, etc., by the community as a whole, and their administration or distribution in the interests of all. Basically the workers own the workplace and make decisions together. Now tell me how in North Korea where the oligarchy (the select few in the gov), and the higher powers make decisions and the workers are merely slaves and pawns in their game and do as they are told. Tell me how that is anywhere close to socialism?

    North Korea fits the definition of socialism. Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    No its not. And im glad your knowledge of socialism and research on the topic is merely wikipedia! Good job!

    Just because it is a hell hole does not make it less socialist.
    Well its not socialist. Just because its name has something to do with socialism does not mean its socialist. Ever heard of a misnomer?
    Was the NAZI party socialist because it had something to do with socialism and workers in its name?

    It is not facist, because that requires a regulated market economy.
    This might blow your mind: "Red Fascism"

    Juche is not an independant economic system.
    Actually Juche has a lot do with the economy. Sense its the ideology on how Norh Korea will become a self sufficient nation..

    If North Korea was successful, then you would have applauded them for being a successful socialist state.
    No i actually would of not at all.
    The USSR one could argue was successful and i do not applaud the USSR at all.
    China is supposedly "socialist" because their name says so and i do not applaud them at all...

    How do we know?
    Well your the one asking the questions.

    Because socialists applauded China under Mao even though it was hardly successful and just as bad as North Korea.
    Well a lot of Mao's programs were succesfuly. But i do not look to Mao as a positive influence on this world and defiantly do not applaud the man.
    Way to generalize about everything


  3. #63
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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    Socialism is a theory or policy of social organization which aims at or advocates the ownership and control of the means of production, capital, land, property, etc., by the community as a whole, and their administration or distribution in the interests of all. Basically the workers own the workplace and make decisions together.
    That's a reasonable definition of socialism based on what Marx wrote. The USSR considered themselves socialist because they had the government own all businesses or the means of production and thus called it community owned, i.e. Marxist. However, Marx himself envisioned the workers themselves owning the companies they worked for. It would have been more like the workers all owning stock. The big question then boils down to if the Soviet total governmental control of all business meets Marx's definition of the workers owning the means of production.

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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    NKorea is indeed a communistic state.
    No more so then the United States is Communistic.

    No state is "communist", it seems, because in the theory communism works, and all these states don't.
    That made absolutely no sense. In theory Communism doesn't work in theory (in a human context), and that has no bearing upon the failure to actual be Communist.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Thats a new one to me too.
    As I understand Marx, he railed against trade with the West as it empowered the Bourgeoisie and tied the economy of a country to the Capitalism of the West, furthering it from Communist Ideals.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus
    I really have very little interest in debating terms with you that most of the English-speaking world already agrees upon the meaning of.
    I suggest you look into criticisms of totalitarianism theory. I also suggest you learn the history of totalitarianism theory, whose original purpose was to equate the USSR under Stalin with NAZI Germany under Hitler as a propaganda weapon in the Cold War.

    In the end the North Korean Communist Party will work to further and maintain its own power above all else
    The Korean Communist Party hasn't existed since 1946; the ruling party is the Korean Workers' Party. And how do you know how much power the KWP has? There has been speculation that the North Korean military leadership has significantly greater power than those in the KWP, and that Jung Il is actually overseen by the military leadership. Certainly we can't corroborate this, but we also can't make assumptions either way regardless, as you and everyone else so very much love to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist
    Well its not socialist.
    Its economic base in the sense that the economy is nationalized is socialist.

    This might blow your mind: "Red Fascism"
    There is no such thing as "Red Fascism". That's like saying "Capitalist Communism". It makes no sense whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious child
    As I understand Marx, he railed against trade with the West as it empowered the Bourgeoisie and tied the economy of a country to the Capitalism of the West, furthering it from Communist Ideals.
    What on earth are you talking about? Quote please? Because he never wrote about trade between socialist and capitalist countries, as the concept didn't even exist until Socialism In One Country was developed by the Stalin crowd (and even then the concept was devoid of meaning).
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    I suggest you look into criticisms of totalitarianism theory. I also suggest you learn the history of totalitarianism theory, whose original purpose was to equate the USSR under Stalin with NAZI Germany under Hitler as a propaganda weapon in the Cold War.

    I suggest you look into this: We need as many perspectives and ideas as possible to solve this country's and this world's problems. A society needs to be robust, resilient and ready to adapt on the fly; that is not possible socially or economically with a command center. Go democracy. Power to the people. Wooo. Yeeehaw.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 06-30-11 at 10:44 AM.

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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Socialism is a theory or policy of social organization which aims at or advocates the ownership and control of the means of production, capital, land, property, etc., by the community as a whole, and their administration or distribution in the interests of all. Basically the workers own the workplace and make decisions together. Now tell me how in North Korea where the oligarchy (the select few in the gov), and the higher powers make decisions and the workers are merely slaves and pawns in their game and do as they are told. Tell me how that is anywhere close to socialism?

    No its not. And im glad your knowledge of socialism and research on the topic is merely wikipedia! Good job!
    Socialism got nothing with being successful. You are saying that if the interest of all is not acknowledged, then it is not socialism. Which means you have to be successful to be socialist. That is bull****! Also, you don't have to own the work place, that is only a variant of socialism.

    Wikipedia is the best source for definitions because both of us can change the definition. If you believe wikipedia is wrong, then feel welcome to change it.

    Well its not socialist. Just because its name has something to do with socialism does not mean its socialist. Ever heard of a misnomer?
    Was the NAZI party socialist because it had something to do with socialism and workers in its name?
    Where did I use the name as an argument. I used a formal definition, and North Korea fits the definiton. Your rebutual is to make your own definition where you are requiring a country to be successful to be socialist, or at least noncorrupt. I can do the same, and then Pinochet's chile was not capitalist, because his system didn't maximize economic output.


    This might blow your mind: "Red Fascism"
    there is no such thing as red facism.


    No i actually would of not at all.
    The USSR one could argue was successful and i do not applaud the USSR at all.
    China is supposedly "socialist" because their name says so and i do not applaud them at all...

    Well a lot of Mao's programs were succesfuly. But i do not look to Mao as a positive influence on this world and defiantly do not applaud the man.
    Way to generalize about everything
    USSR was not successful, so your argument does not make sense. A successful state do not hold their own people as prisoners. If USSR was successful, you would have used them as an argument for socialism.

    But you know very well that your "brothers" applauded Mao back in the 70s for being a great socialist before they knew how horrible he was. China under Mao wasn't any more socialist than North Korea was. They even applauded Pol Pot before they knew what he did. Then he suddenly wasn't socialist anymore when they found out what he did.

    Fact is, North Korea is the most socialist country in the world today, and that's why it is such a hell hole. The hierarchies come because it is the natural state of human being. When you get power, you will keep it. Also, socialist leaders tend to be horrible people, because they are so arrogant. That makes them horrible leaders. They tend to kill political opponents and they stop caring about their own people when things start to go wrong. Since they can't be wrong, it must be the people who are lazy and don't want to do their fair share.

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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    Also, you don't have to own the work place, that is only a variant of socialism.
    Actually, that's the crux of socialism. That was central to Marx's theory that the proletariat would own the means of production instead of the bourgeois.

    USSR was not successful, so your argument does not make sense. A successful state do not hold their own people as prisoners. If USSR was successful, you would have used them as an argument for socialism.
    The USSR was successful at certain things and unsuccessful at others. Any reasonable evaluation of their space exploration program would have to call it successful. They were also highly successful at aeronautics and with the creation of weaponry and scientific research. Their Olympic athletes were also highly successful. What they weren't successful at was in creating a good standard of living for their masses or in creating personal freedoms. They were totalitarian in their mentality. They had been so under monarchy and they continued that way under communism.

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    Re: Is North Korea a communistic State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    Actually, that's the crux of socialism. That was central to Marx's theory that the proletariat would own the means of production instead of the bourgeois.
    First off, I was talking about owning their own workplace, not owning the means of production. In North Korea the people own the means of production, collectively.

    Secondly, marxism is not the same as socialism. Marx is not the founder of socialism, the ideas came from France. Marxism is only a variant of socialism, North Korea do not follow marxism.

    The USSR was successful at certain things and unsuccessful at others. Any reasonable evaluation of their space exploration program would have to call it successful. They were also highly successful at aeronautics and with the creation of weaponry and scientific research. Their Olympic athletes were also highly successful. What they weren't successful at was in creating a good standard of living for their masses or in creating personal freedoms. They were totalitarian in their mentality. They had been so under monarchy and they continued that way under communism.
    I said they are not successfull overall. A country which hold their own people as prisoners in their own country is not successfull. They may have done well in olympics, but they are not successful because they can do well in olympics.

    If Soviet was successful, and they had no gulags and didn't hold their own people as prisoners. Then socialists would have used Soviet as a model for socialism, because socialist used China as a model for socialism in the 70s. Too many socialist define socialism to be a successful state who attempts socialism, and I have met few socialist who are willing to accept any definition apart from their own. Their own definition varies from socialist to socialist.

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